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  • #350197
    Avatar of rasy
    rasy
    Participant

    by arguing there is no such thing as absolute truth, is that in itself considered absolute truth?

    #350208
    Avatar of
    Anonymous

    1th the Four Noble Truth:

    Sariputta: “Now what, friends, is the noble truth of stress? Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; not getting what is wanted is stressful. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful.

    “Now what is birth? Whatever birth, taking birth, descent, coming-to-be, coming-forth, appearance of aggregates, & acquisition of sense media of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called birth.

    “And what is aging? Whatever aging, decrepitude, brokenness, graying, wrinkling, decline of life-force, weakening of the faculties of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called aging.

    “And what is death? Whatever deceasing, passing away, breaking up, disappearance, dying, death, completion of time, break up of the aggregates, casting off of the body, interruption in the life faculty of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called death.

    “And what is sorrow? Whatever sorrow, sorrowing, sadness, inward sorrow, inward sadness of anyone suffering from misfortune, touched by a painful thing, that is called sorrow.

    “And what is lamentation? Whatever crying, grieving, lamenting, weeping, wailing, lamentation of anyone suffering from misfortune, touched by a painful thing, that is called lamentation.

    “And what is pain? Whatever is experienced as bodily pain, bodily discomfort, pain or discomfort born of bodily contact, that is called pain.

    “And what is distress? Whatever is experienced as mental pain, mental discomfort, pain or discomfort born of mental contact, that is called distress.

    “And what is despair? Whatever despair, despondency, desperation of anyone suffering from misfortune, touched by a painful thing, that is called despair.

    “And what is the stress of not getting what one wants? In beings subject to birth, the wish arises, ‘O, may we not be subject to birth, and may birth not come to us.’ But this is not to be achieved by wishing. This is the stress of not getting what one wants. In beings subject to aging… illness… death… sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair, the wish arises, ‘O, may we not be subject to aging… illness… death… sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair, and may aging… illness… death… sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair not come to us.’ But this is not to be achieved by wishing. This is the stress of not getting what one wants.

    “And what are the five clinging-aggregates that, in short, are stressful? Form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling as a clinging-aggregate, perception as a clinging-aggregate, fabrications as a clinging-aggregate, consciousness as a clinging-aggregate: These are called the five clinging-aggregates that, in short, are stressful.

    “This is called the noble truth of stress.”

    2nd and 3rd the Four Noble Truth:

    “Now what is the noble truth of the origination of stress? The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensuality, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming… And what is the noble truth of the cessation of stress? The remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving.”

    “And what is the noble method that is rightly seen & rightly ferreted out by discernment? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones notices:
    When this is, that is. From the arising of this comes the arising of that. When this isn’t, that isn’t. From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.
    “In other words:

    “With ignorance as a condition there are fabrications.
    With fabrications as a condition there is consciousness.
    With consciousness as a condition there is name & form.
    With name & form as a condition there are the six sense spheres.
    With the six sense spheres as a condition there is contact.
    With contact as a condition there is feeling.
    With feeling as a condition there is craving.
    With craving as a condition there is clinging/sustenance.
    With clinging/sustenance as a condition there is becoming.
    With becoming as a condition there is birth.
    With birth as a condition, then old age & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

    “Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance there is the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications there is the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness there is the cessation of name & form. From the cessation of name & form there is the cessation of the six sense spheres. From the cessation of the six sense spheres there is the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact there is the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling there is the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving there is the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance there is the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming there is the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then old age & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

    “This is the noble method that is rightly seen & rightly ferreted out by discernment.”

    4th the Four Noble Truth:

    “There are these two extremes that are not to be indulged in by one who has gone forth. Which two? That which is devoted to sensual pleasure in connection with sensuality: base, domestic, common, ignoble, unprofitable; and that which is devoted to self-affliction: painful, ignoble, unprofitable. Avoiding both of these extremes, the middle way realized by the Tathagata — producing vision, producing knowledge — leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding.

    “And what is the middle way realized by the Tathagata that — producing vision, producing knowledge — leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding? Precisely this Noble Eightfold Path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is the middle way realized by the Tathagata that — producing vision, producing knowledge — leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding.”

    Analysis of the Path.

    “Monks, what is the noble eightfold path? Right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.

    “And what is right view? Knowledge with regard to stress, knowledge with regard to the origination of stress, knowledge with regard to the cessation of stress, knowledge with regard to the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress: This is called right view.

    “And what is right resolve? Resolve aimed at freedom from sensuality, at freedom from ill will, at harmlessness: This is called right resolve.

    “And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

    “And what is right action? Abstaining from taking life, from stealing, & from unchastity. This is called right action.

    “And what is right livelihood? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones, having abandoned dishonest livelihood, keeps his life going with right livelihood: This is called right livelihood.

    “And what is right effort? There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds, & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen… for the sake of the abandoning of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen… for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen…(and) for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This is called right effort.

    “And what is right mindfulness? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves… the mind in & of itself… mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called right mindfulness.

    “And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, ‘Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.’ With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration.”

    ——–

    More details about it here: “THE FOUR NOBLE TRUTH”

    Prove them! That is the special about truth, there are not untrue.

    _()_

    #350217
    Avatar of rasy
    rasy
    Participant

    hanzze, for the some people whom may not accept the 4 noble truth, and do not believe in the 4 noble truth, would they be considered wrong?

    [Message last modified 09-16-2011 03:35am by rasy]

    #350226
    Avatar of
    Anonymous

    Dear friend,

    truth and believe are different thinks. For sure there are less people who really concern about the truth. It seams to be quite more easy to find a believe that fits to once incapacity, anger and greed.

    For those who like to quite with all believes there would be no problem to understand and realize it for them self. But there are less how honestly like and also less to have a chance to get in touch with it. Even a human life is very very rare. One can do nothing then tell other: “Don’t waste your merits, they are gone very fast and the next chance while need eons. Prove it and if it is reasonable, live it. It’s for your own benefit and all beings in this world.”

    Buddha went out to find the truth and to find a way to help to find a way out of suffering. Even he found it and taught it in a great way, it does not mean that everybody would understand.
    You could not explain a pig that it lives in the dirt, even you would talk 100 years and teach it to stay clean. Every things has its own nature its karmic causes. So don’t wast your time to teach others, those who understand will follow you in any way and those who are not able would benefit from the less harm you will cause as soon as you are on the right path.

    The walk on the Eightfold Path starts with some degrees of understanding the Four Noble Truth. That is called ‘right understanding’ or ‘right view’. That means you understand a little that everything has a cause and also an effect. If you understand that a little, you would start to see that your also cause harming. Out of that comes the ‘right intention’ (the second path factor). Right intention means for the benefit of one self and the benefit of all other living beings. So it means to to abstain from harming, to abstain from sensual pleasure, to renounce. With the right intention, the right word grows and also the right action. You would improve your right intention, out of right understanding, to put not harming in acting, in your own action – as there is the place where you yourself can act. From your improvement of words and actions, you would also improve your livelihood, as it would be maybe difficult to put the things in right action if it is just a usually. With the ‘right effort’ your maintain more and more mindfulness. Your mind gets pure out of your words, actions and livelihood grows purer. So ‘right mindfulness’ can grow. If you have reached a good degree of right mindfulness your are able to collect your mind and you are able to have ‘right concentration’. Whit this ‘right concentration’ you can penetrate your defilement and you are able to see the truth for your self, not only on a level of some intellectual understanding, but really as it is. As soon as you have build up all factors of the eightfold path, you real ‘right understanding’ the understanding of the truth by your self.
    Building up the whole factors of the path means that you had reached the first fruit of the path, and there will never be a way back into the other direction. Once really understood the truth, even your defilement are not totally gone, your way will be clear without any concerning.

    The usual way to understand the truth is vipassana. It is acceptable by everyone, every culture, believe or religion. It is just a technique, to watch it, prove it and find out the truth by one self.

    May many take the change in this previous life to find it out by them self. May all beings find out the way to true happiness for them self. May there fear be weak and there effort of great amount, to out an end on suffering. For one self and for the next generations and all beings in this world.

    #350236
    Avatar of rasy
    rasy
    Participant

    [i]Originally posted by hanzze[/i]
    Dear friend,

    truth and believe are different thinks. For sure there are less people who really concern about the truth. It seams to be quite more easy to find a believe that fits to once incapacity, anger and greed.

    For those who like to quite with all believes there would be no problem to understand and realize it for them self. But there are less how honestly like and also less to have a chance to get in touch with it. Even a human life is very very rare. One can do nothing then tell other: “Don’t waste your merits, they are gone very fast and the next chance while need eons. Prove it and if it is reasonable, live it. It’s for your own benefit and all beings in this world.”

    Buddha went out to find the truth and to find a way to help to find a way out of suffering. Even he found it and taught it in a great way, it does not mean that everybody would understand.
    You could not explain a pig that it lives in the dirt, even you would talk 100 years and teach it to stay clean. Every things has its own nature its karmic causes. So don’t wast your time to teach others, those who understand will follow you in any way and those who are not able would benefit from the less harm you will cause as soon as you are on the right path.

    The walk on the Eightfold Path starts with some degrees of understanding the Four Noble Truth. That is called ‘right understanding’ or ‘right view’. That means you understand a little that everything has a cause and also an effect. If you understand that a little, you would start to see that your also cause harming. Out of that comes the ‘right intention’ (the second path factor). Right intention means for the benefit of one self and the benefit of all other living beings. So it means to to abstain from harming, to abstain from sensual pleasure, to renounce. With the right intention, the right word grows and also the right action. You would improve your right intention, out of right understanding, to put not harming in acting, in your own action – as there is the place where you yourself can act. From your improvement of words and actions, you would also improve your livelihood, as it would be maybe difficult to put the things in right action if it is just a usually. With the ‘right effort’ your maintain more and more mindfulness. Your mind gets pure out of your words, actions and livelihood grows purer. So ‘right mindfulness’ can grow. If you have reached a good degree of right mindfulness your are able to collect your mind and you are able to have ‘right concentration’. Whit this ‘right concentration’ you can penetrate your defilement and you are able to see the truth for your self, not only on a level of some intellectual understanding, but really as it is. As soon as you have build up all factors of the eightfold path, you real ‘right understanding’ the understanding of the truth by your self.
    Building up the whole factors of the path means that you had reached the first fruit of the path, and there will never be a way back into the other direction. Once really understood the truth, even your defilement are not totally gone, your way will be clear without any concerning.

    The usual way to understand the truth is vipassana. It is acceptable by everyone, every culture, believe or religion. It is just a technique, to watch it, prove it and find out the truth by one self.

    May many take the change in this previous life to find it out by them self. May all beings find out the way to true happiness for them self. May there fear be weak and there effort of great amount, to out an end on suffering. For one self and for the next generations and all beings in this world.

    my simple question to you is this… “if one interpets the 8 fold path and the 4 noble truths to be false truth…do you think that person is wrong?

    [Message last modified 09-16-2011 06:01pm by rasy]

    #350246
    Avatar of
    Anonymous

    Dear friend,

    how could an interpretation be more truth? As I told you, the truth need to be realized by one self. What ever people, believe, interpret or not believe has less to do with the truth. There is only one way, prove it your self. As for the 4NT, you could even not disagree if you observe them in an logical way.

    So yes, if one rejects the 4NT he would be wrong. But to be wrong is quite normal. The truth has nothing to do with speculation, people would not easily argue without speculation.

    If you tell the 4NT people with high IQ they would understand it. If you tell the 4NT to intellectual people, it is not sure that they would understand them, as 99% of there knowledge is just speculation (what ever it is learned or created by in an discursive way by them self).

    Normal beings are living in a world that could be compared with a dream. As you dream, it is real and true for you. That is why it is called awakening. Wake up from a dream and realize the truth.

    People prefer to argue if there dream or the dream of somebody else would be the truth, that is why they still continue to argue, even fight and kill for the dream. “My dream is the reality! Not your.” I guess it would be not easy to help them out. Mostly big suffering is needed before, that the intention to try to look to reality comes up. Normally it starts after really meeting the 4 heavenly messengers (aging, sickness, death, Bhikkhu) in a moment of awareness, seeing them face to face.

    [Message last modified 09-17-2011 02:59am by hanzze]

    #350255
    Avatar of rasy
    rasy
    Participant

    [i]Originally posted by hanzze[/i]
    Dear friend,

    how could an interpretation be more truth? As I told you, the truth need to be realized by one self. What ever people, believe, interpret or not believe has less to do with the truth. There is only one way, prove it your self. As for the 4NT, you could even not disagree if you observe them in an logical way.

    So yes, if one rejects the 4NT he would be wrong. But to be wrong is quite normal. The truth has nothing to do with speculation, people would not easily argue without speculation.

    If you tell the 4NT people with high IQ they would understand it. If you tell the 4NT to intellectual people, it is not sure that they would understand them, as 99% of there knowledge is just speculation (what ever it is learned or created by in an discursive way by them self).

    Normal beings are living in a world that could be compared with a dream. As you dream, it is real and true for you. That is why it is called awakening. Wake up from a dream and realize the truth.

    People prefer to argue if there dream or the dream of somebody else would be the truth, that is why they still continue to argue, even fight and kill for the dream. “My dream is the reality! Not your.” I guess it would be not easy to help them out. Mostly big suffering is needed before, that the intention to try to look to reality comes up. Normally it starts after really meeting the 4 heavenly messengers (aging, sickness, death, Bhikkhu) in a moment of awareness, seeing them face to face.

    [Message last modified 09-17-2011 02:59am by hanzze]

    so u acknowledge there is a universal absolute truth to human existence, and the absolute universal truth to you is the 4NT, and for all people who look at the 4NT in a logical way but still rejects it as the truth each everyone of them will be considered wrong… but the only way for these wrong people to become right is to realize the 4NT are not false and accept it as truth. thank you for clarifying

    #350266
    Avatar of
    Anonymous

    No dear friend,
    not accepting. There is nothing to accept, that would be a believe or speculation. One needs to realize the truth by him self. If the understanding has just some degrees, it will lead one to look after realizing it as it really is.

    And yes, if one does not understand it is called wrong view. Understanding of the 4NT is right view, right understanding (samma – ditthi). If it is not only on an intellectual level, it is called transcendent right view or understanding.

    If somebody is just intellectual argue about a truth, you could prove him by watch at his behavior, as somebody who had penetrate some degrees of right view, would also act according the 4 NT:

    from the The Discourse on Right View

    3. “When, friends, a noble disciple understands the unwholesome, the root of the unwholesome, the wholesome, and the root of the wholesome, in that way he is one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma, and has arrived at this true Dhamma.

    4. “And what, friends, is the unwholesome, what is the root of the unwholesome, what is the wholesome, what is the root of the wholesome? Killing living beings is unwholesome; taking what is not given is unwholesome; misconduct in sensual pleasures is unwholesome; false speech is unwholesome; malicious speech is unwholesome; harsh speech is unwholesome; gossip is unwholesome; covetousness is unwholesome; ill will is unwholesome; wrong view is unwholesome. This is called the unwholesome.

    5. “And what is the root of the unwholesome? Greed is a root of the unwholesome; hate is a root of the unwholesome; delusion is a root of the unwholesome. This is called the root of the unwholesome.

    6. “And what is the wholesome? Abstention from killing living beings is wholesome; abstention from taking what is not given is wholesome; abstention from misconduct in sensual pleasures is wholesome; abstention from false speech is wholesome; abstention from malicious speech is wholesome; abstention from harsh speech is wholesome; abstention from gossip is wholesome; non-covetousness is wholesome; non-ill will is wholesome; right view is wholesome. This is called the wholesome.

    7. “And what is the root of the wholesome? Non-greed is a root of the wholesome; non-hate is a root of the wholesome; non-delusion is a root of the wholesome. This is called the root of the wholesome.

    8. “When a noble disciple has thus understood the unwholesome, the root of the unwholesome, the wholesome, and the root of the wholesome, he entirely abandons the underlying tendency to lust, he abolishes the underlying tendency to aversion, he extirpates the underlying tendency to the view and conceit ‘I am,’ and by abandoning ignorance and arousing true knowledge he here and now makes an end of suffering. In that way too a noble disciple is one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma and has arrived at this true Dhamma.”

    Here you may find also a good explaining of Right View and its aspects: Right View – samma ditthi[/url]

    [Message last modified 09-19-2011 12:33am by hanzze]

    #350275
    Avatar of Fuddyduddy
    Fuddyduddy
    Participant

    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]
    by arguing there is no such thing as absolute truth, is that in itself considered absolute truth?

    Yes, it’s called a paradox. You know like, Can god create a mountain that he cannot move? If he can, then well mr omnipotent all powerful can’t move it, but if he can’t build a mountain he cannot move then well he can’t build it. So, either way he cannot do it. I’m sure you heard that paradox somewhere.

    #350285
    Avatar of rasy
    rasy
    Participant

    [i]Originally posted by Fuddyduddy[/i]

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]
    by arguing there is no such thing as absolute truth, is that in itself considered absolute truth?

    Yes, it’s called a paradox. You know like, Can god create a mountain that he cannot move? If he can, then well mr omnipotent all powerful can’t move it, but if he can’t build a mountain he cannot move then well he can’t build it. So, either way he cannot do it. I’m sure you heard that paradox somewhere. [/quote]

    since absolute truth involves moral and ethical dilemmas, which one of the two would be wrong? 1) saying there is no such thing as absolute or? 2) there does exists an absolute truth?

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