absolute truth?

Home Forums Religion absolute truth?

This topic contains 90 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by Avatar of  Anonymous 2 years, 9 months ago.

Viewing 35 posts - 1 through 35 (of 91 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #350197
    Avatar of rasy
    rasy
    Participant

    by arguing there is no such thing as absolute truth, is that in itself considered absolute truth?

    #350208
    Avatar of
    Anonymous

    1th the Four Noble Truth:

    Sariputta: “Now what, friends, is the noble truth of stress? Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; not getting what is wanted is stressful. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful.

    “Now what is birth? Whatever birth, taking birth, descent, coming-to-be, coming-forth, appearance of aggregates, & acquisition of sense media of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called birth.

    “And what is aging? Whatever aging, decrepitude, brokenness, graying, wrinkling, decline of life-force, weakening of the faculties of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called aging.

    “And what is death? Whatever deceasing, passing away, breaking up, disappearance, dying, death, completion of time, break up of the aggregates, casting off of the body, interruption in the life faculty of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called death.

    “And what is sorrow? Whatever sorrow, sorrowing, sadness, inward sorrow, inward sadness of anyone suffering from misfortune, touched by a painful thing, that is called sorrow.

    “And what is lamentation? Whatever crying, grieving, lamenting, weeping, wailing, lamentation of anyone suffering from misfortune, touched by a painful thing, that is called lamentation.

    “And what is pain? Whatever is experienced as bodily pain, bodily discomfort, pain or discomfort born of bodily contact, that is called pain.

    “And what is distress? Whatever is experienced as mental pain, mental discomfort, pain or discomfort born of mental contact, that is called distress.

    “And what is despair? Whatever despair, despondency, desperation of anyone suffering from misfortune, touched by a painful thing, that is called despair.

    “And what is the stress of not getting what one wants? In beings subject to birth, the wish arises, ‘O, may we not be subject to birth, and may birth not come to us.’ But this is not to be achieved by wishing. This is the stress of not getting what one wants. In beings subject to aging… illness… death… sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair, the wish arises, ‘O, may we not be subject to aging… illness… death… sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair, and may aging… illness… death… sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair not come to us.’ But this is not to be achieved by wishing. This is the stress of not getting what one wants.

    “And what are the five clinging-aggregates that, in short, are stressful? Form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling as a clinging-aggregate, perception as a clinging-aggregate, fabrications as a clinging-aggregate, consciousness as a clinging-aggregate: These are called the five clinging-aggregates that, in short, are stressful.

    “This is called the noble truth of stress.”

    2nd and 3rd the Four Noble Truth:

    “Now what is the noble truth of the origination of stress? The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensuality, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming… And what is the noble truth of the cessation of stress? The remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving.”

    “And what is the noble method that is rightly seen & rightly ferreted out by discernment? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones notices:
    When this is, that is. From the arising of this comes the arising of that. When this isn’t, that isn’t. From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.
    “In other words:

    “With ignorance as a condition there are fabrications.
    With fabrications as a condition there is consciousness.
    With consciousness as a condition there is name & form.
    With name & form as a condition there are the six sense spheres.
    With the six sense spheres as a condition there is contact.
    With contact as a condition there is feeling.
    With feeling as a condition there is craving.
    With craving as a condition there is clinging/sustenance.
    With clinging/sustenance as a condition there is becoming.
    With becoming as a condition there is birth.
    With birth as a condition, then old age & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

    “Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance there is the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications there is the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness there is the cessation of name & form. From the cessation of name & form there is the cessation of the six sense spheres. From the cessation of the six sense spheres there is the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact there is the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling there is the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving there is the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance there is the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming there is the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then old age & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

    “This is the noble method that is rightly seen & rightly ferreted out by discernment.”

    4th the Four Noble Truth:

    “There are these two extremes that are not to be indulged in by one who has gone forth. Which two? That which is devoted to sensual pleasure in connection with sensuality: base, domestic, common, ignoble, unprofitable; and that which is devoted to self-affliction: painful, ignoble, unprofitable. Avoiding both of these extremes, the middle way realized by the Tathagata — producing vision, producing knowledge — leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding.

    “And what is the middle way realized by the Tathagata that — producing vision, producing knowledge — leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding? Precisely this Noble Eightfold Path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is the middle way realized by the Tathagata that — producing vision, producing knowledge — leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding.”

    Analysis of the Path.

    “Monks, what is the noble eightfold path? Right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.

    “And what is right view? Knowledge with regard to stress, knowledge with regard to the origination of stress, knowledge with regard to the cessation of stress, knowledge with regard to the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress: This is called right view.

    “And what is right resolve? Resolve aimed at freedom from sensuality, at freedom from ill will, at harmlessness: This is called right resolve.

    “And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

    “And what is right action? Abstaining from taking life, from stealing, & from unchastity. This is called right action.

    “And what is right livelihood? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones, having abandoned dishonest livelihood, keeps his life going with right livelihood: This is called right livelihood.

    “And what is right effort? There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds, & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen… for the sake of the abandoning of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen… for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen…(and) for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This is called right effort.

    “And what is right mindfulness? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves… the mind in & of itself… mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called right mindfulness.

    “And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, ‘Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.’ With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration.”

    ——–

    More details about it here: “THE FOUR NOBLE TRUTH”

    Prove them! That is the special about truth, there are not untrue.

    _()_

    #350217
    Avatar of rasy
    rasy
    Participant

    hanzze, for the some people whom may not accept the 4 noble truth, and do not believe in the 4 noble truth, would they be considered wrong?

    [Message last modified 09-16-2011 03:35am by rasy]

    #350226
    Avatar of
    Anonymous

    Dear friend,

    truth and believe are different thinks. For sure there are less people who really concern about the truth. It seams to be quite more easy to find a believe that fits to once incapacity, anger and greed.

    For those who like to quite with all believes there would be no problem to understand and realize it for them self. But there are less how honestly like and also less to have a chance to get in touch with it. Even a human life is very very rare. One can do nothing then tell other: “Don’t waste your merits, they are gone very fast and the next chance while need eons. Prove it and if it is reasonable, live it. It’s for your own benefit and all beings in this world.”

    Buddha went out to find the truth and to find a way to help to find a way out of suffering. Even he found it and taught it in a great way, it does not mean that everybody would understand.
    You could not explain a pig that it lives in the dirt, even you would talk 100 years and teach it to stay clean. Every things has its own nature its karmic causes. So don’t wast your time to teach others, those who understand will follow you in any way and those who are not able would benefit from the less harm you will cause as soon as you are on the right path.

    The walk on the Eightfold Path starts with some degrees of understanding the Four Noble Truth. That is called ‘right understanding’ or ‘right view’. That means you understand a little that everything has a cause and also an effect. If you understand that a little, you would start to see that your also cause harming. Out of that comes the ‘right intention’ (the second path factor). Right intention means for the benefit of one self and the benefit of all other living beings. So it means to to abstain from harming, to abstain from sensual pleasure, to renounce. With the right intention, the right word grows and also the right action. You would improve your right intention, out of right understanding, to put not harming in acting, in your own action – as there is the place where you yourself can act. From your improvement of words and actions, you would also improve your livelihood, as it would be maybe difficult to put the things in right action if it is just a usually. With the ‘right effort’ your maintain more and more mindfulness. Your mind gets pure out of your words, actions and livelihood grows purer. So ‘right mindfulness’ can grow. If you have reached a good degree of right mindfulness your are able to collect your mind and you are able to have ‘right concentration’. Whit this ‘right concentration’ you can penetrate your defilement and you are able to see the truth for your self, not only on a level of some intellectual understanding, but really as it is. As soon as you have build up all factors of the eightfold path, you real ‘right understanding’ the understanding of the truth by your self.
    Building up the whole factors of the path means that you had reached the first fruit of the path, and there will never be a way back into the other direction. Once really understood the truth, even your defilement are not totally gone, your way will be clear without any concerning.

    The usual way to understand the truth is vipassana. It is acceptable by everyone, every culture, believe or religion. It is just a technique, to watch it, prove it and find out the truth by one self.

    May many take the change in this previous life to find it out by them self. May all beings find out the way to true happiness for them self. May there fear be weak and there effort of great amount, to out an end on suffering. For one self and for the next generations and all beings in this world.

    #350236
    Avatar of rasy
    rasy
    Participant

    [i]Originally posted by hanzze[/i]
    Dear friend,

    truth and believe are different thinks. For sure there are less people who really concern about the truth. It seams to be quite more easy to find a believe that fits to once incapacity, anger and greed.

    For those who like to quite with all believes there would be no problem to understand and realize it for them self. But there are less how honestly like and also less to have a chance to get in touch with it. Even a human life is very very rare. One can do nothing then tell other: “Don’t waste your merits, they are gone very fast and the next chance while need eons. Prove it and if it is reasonable, live it. It’s for your own benefit and all beings in this world.”

    Buddha went out to find the truth and to find a way to help to find a way out of suffering. Even he found it and taught it in a great way, it does not mean that everybody would understand.
    You could not explain a pig that it lives in the dirt, even you would talk 100 years and teach it to stay clean. Every things has its own nature its karmic causes. So don’t wast your time to teach others, those who understand will follow you in any way and those who are not able would benefit from the less harm you will cause as soon as you are on the right path.

    The walk on the Eightfold Path starts with some degrees of understanding the Four Noble Truth. That is called ‘right understanding’ or ‘right view’. That means you understand a little that everything has a cause and also an effect. If you understand that a little, you would start to see that your also cause harming. Out of that comes the ‘right intention’ (the second path factor). Right intention means for the benefit of one self and the benefit of all other living beings. So it means to to abstain from harming, to abstain from sensual pleasure, to renounce. With the right intention, the right word grows and also the right action. You would improve your right intention, out of right understanding, to put not harming in acting, in your own action – as there is the place where you yourself can act. From your improvement of words and actions, you would also improve your livelihood, as it would be maybe difficult to put the things in right action if it is just a usually. With the ‘right effort’ your maintain more and more mindfulness. Your mind gets pure out of your words, actions and livelihood grows purer. So ‘right mindfulness’ can grow. If you have reached a good degree of right mindfulness your are able to collect your mind and you are able to have ‘right concentration’. Whit this ‘right concentration’ you can penetrate your defilement and you are able to see the truth for your self, not only on a level of some intellectual understanding, but really as it is. As soon as you have build up all factors of the eightfold path, you real ‘right understanding’ the understanding of the truth by your self.
    Building up the whole factors of the path means that you had reached the first fruit of the path, and there will never be a way back into the other direction. Once really understood the truth, even your defilement are not totally gone, your way will be clear without any concerning.

    The usual way to understand the truth is vipassana. It is acceptable by everyone, every culture, believe or religion. It is just a technique, to watch it, prove it and find out the truth by one self.

    May many take the change in this previous life to find it out by them self. May all beings find out the way to true happiness for them self. May there fear be weak and there effort of great amount, to out an end on suffering. For one self and for the next generations and all beings in this world.

    my simple question to you is this… “if one interpets the 8 fold path and the 4 noble truths to be false truth…do you think that person is wrong?

    [Message last modified 09-16-2011 06:01pm by rasy]

    #350246
    Avatar of
    Anonymous

    Dear friend,

    how could an interpretation be more truth? As I told you, the truth need to be realized by one self. What ever people, believe, interpret or not believe has less to do with the truth. There is only one way, prove it your self. As for the 4NT, you could even not disagree if you observe them in an logical way.

    So yes, if one rejects the 4NT he would be wrong. But to be wrong is quite normal. The truth has nothing to do with speculation, people would not easily argue without speculation.

    If you tell the 4NT people with high IQ they would understand it. If you tell the 4NT to intellectual people, it is not sure that they would understand them, as 99% of there knowledge is just speculation (what ever it is learned or created by in an discursive way by them self).

    Normal beings are living in a world that could be compared with a dream. As you dream, it is real and true for you. That is why it is called awakening. Wake up from a dream and realize the truth.

    People prefer to argue if there dream or the dream of somebody else would be the truth, that is why they still continue to argue, even fight and kill for the dream. “My dream is the reality! Not your.” I guess it would be not easy to help them out. Mostly big suffering is needed before, that the intention to try to look to reality comes up. Normally it starts after really meeting the 4 heavenly messengers (aging, sickness, death, Bhikkhu) in a moment of awareness, seeing them face to face.

    [Message last modified 09-17-2011 02:59am by hanzze]

    #350255
    Avatar of rasy
    rasy
    Participant

    [i]Originally posted by hanzze[/i]
    Dear friend,

    how could an interpretation be more truth? As I told you, the truth need to be realized by one self. What ever people, believe, interpret or not believe has less to do with the truth. There is only one way, prove it your self. As for the 4NT, you could even not disagree if you observe them in an logical way.

    So yes, if one rejects the 4NT he would be wrong. But to be wrong is quite normal. The truth has nothing to do with speculation, people would not easily argue without speculation.

    If you tell the 4NT people with high IQ they would understand it. If you tell the 4NT to intellectual people, it is not sure that they would understand them, as 99% of there knowledge is just speculation (what ever it is learned or created by in an discursive way by them self).

    Normal beings are living in a world that could be compared with a dream. As you dream, it is real and true for you. That is why it is called awakening. Wake up from a dream and realize the truth.

    People prefer to argue if there dream or the dream of somebody else would be the truth, that is why they still continue to argue, even fight and kill for the dream. “My dream is the reality! Not your.” I guess it would be not easy to help them out. Mostly big suffering is needed before, that the intention to try to look to reality comes up. Normally it starts after really meeting the 4 heavenly messengers (aging, sickness, death, Bhikkhu) in a moment of awareness, seeing them face to face.

    [Message last modified 09-17-2011 02:59am by hanzze]

    so u acknowledge there is a universal absolute truth to human existence, and the absolute universal truth to you is the 4NT, and for all people who look at the 4NT in a logical way but still rejects it as the truth each everyone of them will be considered wrong… but the only way for these wrong people to become right is to realize the 4NT are not false and accept it as truth. thank you for clarifying

    #350266
    Avatar of
    Anonymous

    No dear friend,
    not accepting. There is nothing to accept, that would be a believe or speculation. One needs to realize the truth by him self. If the understanding has just some degrees, it will lead one to look after realizing it as it really is.

    And yes, if one does not understand it is called wrong view. Understanding of the 4NT is right view, right understanding (samma – ditthi). If it is not only on an intellectual level, it is called transcendent right view or understanding.

    If somebody is just intellectual argue about a truth, you could prove him by watch at his behavior, as somebody who had penetrate some degrees of right view, would also act according the 4 NT:

    from the The Discourse on Right View

    3. “When, friends, a noble disciple understands the unwholesome, the root of the unwholesome, the wholesome, and the root of the wholesome, in that way he is one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma, and has arrived at this true Dhamma.

    4. “And what, friends, is the unwholesome, what is the root of the unwholesome, what is the wholesome, what is the root of the wholesome? Killing living beings is unwholesome; taking what is not given is unwholesome; misconduct in sensual pleasures is unwholesome; false speech is unwholesome; malicious speech is unwholesome; harsh speech is unwholesome; gossip is unwholesome; covetousness is unwholesome; ill will is unwholesome; wrong view is unwholesome. This is called the unwholesome.

    5. “And what is the root of the unwholesome? Greed is a root of the unwholesome; hate is a root of the unwholesome; delusion is a root of the unwholesome. This is called the root of the unwholesome.

    6. “And what is the wholesome? Abstention from killing living beings is wholesome; abstention from taking what is not given is wholesome; abstention from misconduct in sensual pleasures is wholesome; abstention from false speech is wholesome; abstention from malicious speech is wholesome; abstention from harsh speech is wholesome; abstention from gossip is wholesome; non-covetousness is wholesome; non-ill will is wholesome; right view is wholesome. This is called the wholesome.

    7. “And what is the root of the wholesome? Non-greed is a root of the wholesome; non-hate is a root of the wholesome; non-delusion is a root of the wholesome. This is called the root of the wholesome.

    8. “When a noble disciple has thus understood the unwholesome, the root of the unwholesome, the wholesome, and the root of the wholesome, he entirely abandons the underlying tendency to lust, he abolishes the underlying tendency to aversion, he extirpates the underlying tendency to the view and conceit ‘I am,’ and by abandoning ignorance and arousing true knowledge he here and now makes an end of suffering. In that way too a noble disciple is one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma and has arrived at this true Dhamma.”

    Here you may find also a good explaining of Right View and its aspects: Right View – samma ditthi[/url]

    [Message last modified 09-19-2011 12:33am by hanzze]

    #350275
    Avatar of Fuddyduddy
    Fuddyduddy
    Participant

    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]
    by arguing there is no such thing as absolute truth, is that in itself considered absolute truth?

    Yes, it’s called a paradox. You know like, Can god create a mountain that he cannot move? If he can, then well mr omnipotent all powerful can’t move it, but if he can’t build a mountain he cannot move then well he can’t build it. So, either way he cannot do it. I’m sure you heard that paradox somewhere.

    #350285
    Avatar of rasy
    rasy
    Participant

    [i]Originally posted by Fuddyduddy[/i]

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]
    by arguing there is no such thing as absolute truth, is that in itself considered absolute truth?

    Yes, it’s called a paradox. You know like, Can god create a mountain that he cannot move? If he can, then well mr omnipotent all powerful can’t move it, but if he can’t build a mountain he cannot move then well he can’t build it. So, either way he cannot do it. I’m sure you heard that paradox somewhere. [/quote]

    since absolute truth involves moral and ethical dilemmas, which one of the two would be wrong? 1) saying there is no such thing as absolute or? 2) there does exists an absolute truth?

    #350295
    Avatar of
    Anonymous

    That the truth is absolute does not mean that there is something absolute as well as there is something relative. The truth it self is the absolute, that is why it is called the truth.

    But you can also say that the only absolute is that all things are relative and therefor there would be something absolute. Can you get that? …the in between, the truth. *smile*

    #350306
    Avatar of Fuddyduddy
    Fuddyduddy
    Participant

    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by Fuddyduddy[/i]

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]
    by arguing there is no such thing as absolute truth, is that in itself considered absolute truth?

    Yes, it’s called a paradox. You know like, Can god create a mountain that he cannot move? If he can, then well mr omnipotent all powerful can’t move it, but if he can’t build a mountain he cannot move then well he can’t build it. So, either way he cannot do it. I’m sure you heard that paradox somewhere. [/quote]

    since absolute truth involves moral and ethical dilemmas, which one of the two would be wrong? 1) saying there is no such thing as absolute or? 2) there does exists an absolute truth? [/quote]

    If I were to debate that it is wrong for you to imply that absolute truth does exist, then I would certainly contradict my own statement, because my own statement implies that it is absolute truth that there is no absolute truth. Our language and mental perception limits us from any sort of conclusion, so really it’s pointless. As the saying goes, it’s true enough.

    If you are familiar with Plato’s cave, the shadows displayed on the wall in front the chained man is true enough within his own condition, understanding and perception, however if he were to turn around he would see that those shadows are only images being cast from the objects casting the shadows. Seeing this, his perception and condition has changed. What he once thought was truth, is now perceived differently and a bit clearer. When he goes outside, he realizes that there is a different reality, and his awareness and perception has changed again and conveys the truth differently. There is some sort of absolute but it is interpreted differently depending on the conditions, awareness and perception of the interpreter. That’s how I see it anyways.

    It is my belief that the truth whatever it may be, does exist however it is impossible to grasp. What is important is for us to interpret, or believe in whatever way we which, because if we already knew what the absolute truth there would not be any more interpretation and what fun would that be, no more imagination, no new ideas, no new experiences.

    “I see a pattern, but my imagination cannot picture the maker of that pattern. I see a clock, but I cannot envision the clockmaker. The human mind is unable to conceive of the four dimensions, so how can it conceive of a God, before whom a thousand years and a thousand dimensions are as one?” -Einstein, Princeton University

    #350315
    Avatar of bowang
    bowang
    Participant

    It is my belief that the truth whatever it may be, does exist however it is impossible to grasp. What is important is for us to interpret, or believe in whatever way we which, because if we already knew what the absolute truth there would not be any more interpretation and what fun would that be, no more imagination, no new ideas, no new experiences.

    logically it is impossible to grasp Absolute Truth because it is infinite and we are finite beings. However, God transcends logic and does make it possible to grasp HIM. He becomes a singularity. the Father, the Son, grasping and understanding each other through the Holy Spirit. same goes, how is man able to have free will when there is predestination in place? or how is it that light can be a wave or particle. creation is a paradox, it is impossible but it is real. it is beyond just quantum mechanics. there is Consciousness involved. we as finite beings and of our own accord will never understand the totality of the world outside of our cave. it is only when someone from the outside comes in to tell us personally do we start to have a sense of what it is like but not absolutely until you too leaves the cave. thats why Faith is required. Faith is like putting x, to infinity.

    lets say the cave is a fish bowl. i am outside of the bowl and i want to communicate with the primitive fishes. how would i go about doing so? i would take a bit of me and implant it into one of the fishes. sort of like genetic engineering but try to look at it from a spiritual perspective. from there, i would exist as both infinite and finite at the same time having descended to a lower realm by restricting myself in a body or singularity. i would retain certain memories designed to be intact and communicated to the other fishes in their own language about the outside world if that is my purpose or plan.

    so not only is it possible but we are the living proof of the miracle behind it.

    #350325
    Avatar of Fuddyduddy
    Fuddyduddy
    Participant

    [i]Originally posted by bowang[/i]
    [b] It is my belief that the truth whatever it may be, does exist however it is impossible to grasp. What is important is for us to interpret, or believe in whatever way we which, because if we already knew what the absolute truth there would not be any more interpretation and what fun would that be, no more imagination, no new ideas, no new experiences. [/b]

    logically it is impossible to grasp Absolute Truth because it is infinite and we are finite beings. However, God transcends logic and does make it possible to grasp HIM. He becomes a singularity. the Father, the Son, grasping and understanding each other through the Holy Spirit. same goes, how is man able to have free will when there is predestination in place? or how is it that light can be a wave or particle. creation is a paradox, it is impossible but it is real. it is beyond just quantum mechanics. there is Consciousness involved. we as finite beings and of our own accord will never understand the totality of the world outside of our cave. it is only when someone from the outside comes in to tell us personally do we start to have a sense of what it is like but not absolutely until you too leaves the cave. thats why Faith is required. Faith is like putting x, to infinity.

    lets say the cave is a fish bowl. i am outside of the bowl and i want to communicate with the primitive fishes. how would i go about doing so? i would take a bit of me and implant it into one of the fishes. sort of like genetic engineering but try to look at it from a spiritual perspective. from there, i would exist as both infinite and finite at the same time having descended to a lower realm by restricting myself in a body or singularity. i would retain certain memories designed to be intact and communicated to the other fishes in their own language about the outside world if that is my purpose or plan.

    so not only is it possible but we are the living proof of the miracle behind it.

    If you are trying to imply that Jesus is just a manifestation of god in a finite form then well I’m not going to refute it. However, I would like to say that higher intelligence like advance alien civilization could do the same thing. Heck, I can even eat mother natures magic penis and communicate with what I would define as divine.

    #350335
    Avatar of bowang
    bowang
    Participant

    i am not implying it. i am saying it. when jesus spoke about the kingdom of God, he’s referring to the outside world beyond the cave where he came from. no man can look upon the face of the Father and live means to directly grasp Absolute truth in its totality is impossible for the common man. but it is possible to get to know the Father (Infinite) through his Son (Finite), incarnation. like how a singularity is what’s needed to bridge different dimensions, multi dimensional travel. yes advance aliens, or fallen angels, they have manipulated our dna etc and dmt shroom all of which has spiritual as well as physical aspect to them. its all one of the same thing in different manifestations.

    [i]Originally posted by Fuddyduddy[/i]

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by bowang[/i]
    [b] It is my belief that the truth whatever it may be, does exist however it is impossible to grasp. What is important is for us to interpret, or believe in whatever way we which, because if we already knew what the absolute truth there would not be any more interpretation and what fun would that be, no more imagination, no new ideas, no new experiences. [/b]

    logically it is impossible to grasp Absolute Truth because it is infinite and we are finite beings. However, God transcends logic and does make it possible to grasp HIM. He becomes a singularity. the Father, the Son, grasping and understanding each other through the Holy Spirit. same goes, how is man able to have free will when there is predestination in place? or how is it that light can be a wave or particle. creation is a paradox, it is impossible but it is real. it is beyond just quantum mechanics. there is Consciousness involved. we as finite beings and of our own accord will never understand the totality of the world outside of our cave. it is only when someone from the outside comes in to tell us personally do we start to have a sense of what it is like but not absolutely until you too leaves the cave. thats why Faith is required. Faith is like putting x, to infinity.

    lets say the cave is a fish bowl. i am outside of the bowl and i want to communicate with the primitive fishes. how would i go about doing so? i would take a bit of me and implant it into one of the fishes. sort of like genetic engineering but try to look at it from a spiritual perspective. from there, i would exist as both infinite and finite at the same time having descended to a lower realm by restricting myself in a body or singularity. i would retain certain memories designed to be intact and communicated to the other fishes in their own language about the outside world if that is my purpose or plan.

    so not only is it possible but we are the living proof of the miracle behind it.

    If you are trying to imply that Jesus is just a manifestation of god in a finite form then well I’m not going to refute it. However, I would like to say that higher intelligence like advance alien civilization could do the same thing. Heck, I can even eat mother natures magic penis and communicate with what I would define as divine.
    [/quote]

    [Message last modified 09-26-2011 01:18am by bowang]

    #350346
    Avatar of rasy
    rasy
    Participant

    [i]Originally posted by Fuddyduddy[/i]

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by Fuddyduddy[/i]

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]
    by arguing there is no such thing as absolute truth, is that in itself considered absolute truth?

    Yes, it’s called a paradox. You know like, Can god create a mountain that he cannot move? If he can, then well mr omnipotent all powerful can’t move it, but if he can’t build a mountain he cannot move then well he can’t build it. So, either way he cannot do it. I’m sure you heard that paradox somewhere. [/quote]

    since absolute truth involves moral and ethical dilemmas, which one of the two would be wrong? 1) saying there is no such thing as absolute or? 2) there does exists an absolute truth? [/quote]

    If you are familiar with Plato’s cave, the shadows displayed on the wall in front the chained man is true enough within his own condition, understanding and perception, however if he were to turn around he would see that those shadows are only images being cast from the objects casting the shadows. Seeing this, his perception and condition has changed. What he once thought was truth, is now perceived differently and a bit clearer. When he goes outside, he realizes that there is a different reality, and his awareness and perception has changed again and conveys the truth differently. There is some sort of absolute but it is interpreted differently depending on the conditions, awareness and perception of the interpreter. That’s how I see it anyways.

    It is my belief that the truth whatever it may be, does exist however it is impossible to grasp. What is important is for us to interpret, or believe in whatever way we which, because if we already knew what the absolute truth there would not be any more interpretation and what fun would that be, no more imagination, no new ideas, no new experiences.

    [/quote]

    regarding Plato’s cave. yes if the prisoners were to just turn around they would come to a reality. they would come to the truth, and the truth tells them the shadows were caused by passing objects in front of the flame. They now know the shadows are caused by something and not caused by themselves. This story supports there is an absolute truth of how the shadows appear. there is no other interpretation to explain how the shadows logically truthfully appear. The former interpretation of the prisoners is wrong, the new interpreation is true. But is it wrong for them to find this new truth? I think not, this new found truth only benefits them.

    So now when the next set of prisoners come into the cave and are bound by the chains, the former prisoners can tell the new group “hey, do not be mislead, the shadows are before you are caused by the objects passing the flame.” And the truth would still stand. In fact, no matter how many new groups of prisoners come into the cave the truth about the shadows will still stand. For the next 1 year of new prisoners or the next 100 years of new prisoners in the cave, the truth of the shadows caused by flame will still stand. That is the significane of absolute truth.

    example of how this is practical. Because we know the truth about technology we can create smart phones, because we know the truth about the distance from the earth to the moon we can build a space ship and go there. If all of our scientific discoveries were not based on truth I think humans are more limited. It is because knowing the truth our imagination and creativity and experiences is more fun. Not knowing the truth i think limits us and our imagination.

    Yes, if the prisoners did not know the truth they can still be imaginative or creative. But the imagination is no longer imagination, it becomes reality. A false sense of reality. So they are not practicing creativity or imagination because they think the shadows are reality caused by themselves. So believeing in what ever we wish or interpreting in what ever we want without a standard can be harmful.

    But when it comes to what is wrong and what is right (moral & ethics), I we can not allow false truth or false reality to have it’s way with us, we cant afford that.

    [Message last modified 09-28-2011 08:55pm by rasy]

    #350355
    Avatar of Fuddyduddy
    Fuddyduddy
    Participant

    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]
    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by Fuddyduddy[/i]

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by Fuddyduddy[/i]

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]
    by arguing there is no such thing as absolute truth, is that in itself considered absolute truth?

    Yes, it’s called a paradox. You know like, Can god create a mountain that he cannot move? If he can, then well mr omnipotent all powerful can’t move it, but if he can’t build a mountain he cannot move then well he can’t build it. So, either way he cannot do it. I’m sure you heard that paradox somewhere. [/quote]

    since absolute truth involves moral and ethical dilemmas, which one of the two would be wrong? 1) saying there is no such thing as absolute or? 2) there does exists an absolute truth? [/quote]

    If you are familiar with Plato’s cave, the shadows displayed on the wall in front the chained man is true enough within his own condition, understanding and perception, however if he were to turn around he would see that those shadows are only images being cast from the objects casting the shadows. Seeing this, his perception and condition has changed. What he once thought was truth, is now perceived differently and a bit clearer. When he goes outside, he realizes that there is a different reality, and his awareness and perception has changed again and conveys the truth differently. There is some sort of absolute but it is interpreted differently depending on the conditions, awareness and perception of the interpreter. That’s how I see it anyways.

    It is my belief that the truth whatever it may be, does exist however it is impossible to grasp. What is important is for us to interpret, or believe in whatever way we which, because if we already knew what the absolute truth there would not be any more interpretation and what fun would that be, no more imagination, no new ideas, no new experiences.

    [/quote]

    regarding Plato’s cave. yes if the prisoners were to just turn around they would come to a reality. they would come to the truth, and the truth tells them the shadows were caused by passing objects in front of the flame. They now know the shadows are caused by something and not caused by themselves. This story supports there is an absolute truth of how the shadows appear. there is no other interpretation to explain how the shadows logically truthfully appear. The former interpretation of the prisoners is wrong, the new interpreation is true. But is it wrong for them to find this new truth? I think not, this new found truth only benefits them.

    So now when the next set of prisoners come into the cave and are bound by the chains, the former prisoners can tell the new group “hey, do not be mislead, the shadows are before you are caused by the objects passing the flame.” And the truth would still stand. In fact, no matter how many new groups of prisoners come into the cave the truth about the shadows will still stand. For the next 1 year of new prisoners or the next 100 years of new prisoners in the cave, the truth of the shadows caused by flame will still stand. That is the significane of absolute truth.

    example of how this is practical. Because we know the truth about technology we can create smart phones, because we know the truth about the distance from the earth to the moon we can build a space ship and go there. If all of our scientific discoveries were not based on truth I think humans are more limited. It is because knowing the truth our imagination and creativity and experiences is more fun. Not knowing the truth i think limits us and our imagination.

    Yes, if the prisoners did not know the truth they can still be imaginative or creative. But the imagination is no longer imagination, it becomes reality. A false sense of reality. So they are not practicing creativity or imagination because they think the shadows are reality caused by themselves. So believeing in what ever we wish or interpreting in what ever we want without a standard can be harmful.

    But when it comes to what is wrong and what is right (moral & ethics), I we can not allow false truth or false reality to have it’s way with us, we cant afford that.

    [Message last modified 09-28-2011 08:55pm by rasy][/quote]

    You are correct that it supports absolute truth, and Plato’s interpretation of absolute truth is what he called Forms, example, the nature of a chair is a form which is absolute everything else is a copy that is close enough to it. Another example is a perfect circle, we have never seen a perfect circle, but we can associate something resembling a circle to a circle. Forms exist in an abstract realm that only can be perceived by the mind.
    The shadows on the walls are copies of the forms, and not a true representation of them, the true forms are the objects. The images on the wall is an illusion, a copy of the form, and the chained men are interpreting those illusions to create a model that fits with their condition and limited awareness.

    What what we know scientifically is truth enough to fit with our model of the universe, it is not absolute. It’s just like the representation of the forms, what we are interpreting our copies and illusions, so what we know is the truest truth that we know. Again, our scientific discoveries are not based on an absolute truth, “the form”, it is based on a interpretation of the copies of the form. Because it is based on a copy we cannot see it’s full image, so we model what we interpret with what we have. You don’t need to know the absolute truth to fly a spaceship to the moon, you just need to know enough that it’s true enough to build a model that you can use to fly a spaceship to the moon. Not knowing the absolute, and only have interpretations of a copy of some sort of truths lead to imagination and creativity that is used to expand awareness, and I believe that does not limit us, it challenges us to create new ideas, new technology, concepts and different understanding.

    “Imagination is more important than knowledge.” – Albert Einstein.

    #350366
    Avatar of rasy
    rasy
    Participant

    @fuddybuddy, can u list a “form” that involves a moral or ethical dilemma?

    #350376
    Avatar of Fuddyduddy
    Fuddyduddy
    Participant

    Well any form could have something to do with a moral dilemma for example the Form “GOOD”.

    #350386
    Avatar of rasy
    rasy
    Participant

    [i]Originally posted by Fuddyduddy[/i]

    Well any form could have something to do with a moral dilemma for example the Form “GOOD”.

    you mention the shadows are copies of a form, the form being objects and illusions being shadows. absolute truth here are the objects causing the shadows. but not all absolute truth are in abstract realm. the truth here are the objects, they are at your grasp. remove the objects and u will remove the shadows, place the objects and the shadows will appear. it does not have to be that abstract.

    but in regards to your response what would be a copy of this form “good” be? what would an illusion of this form “good” be?

    #350394
    Avatar of Fuddyduddy
    Fuddyduddy
    Participant

    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by Fuddyduddy[/i]

    Well any form could have something to do with a moral dilemma for example the Form “GOOD”.

    you mention the shadows are copies of a form, the form being objects and illusions being shadows. absolute truth here are the objects causing the shadows. but not all absolute truth are in abstract realm. the truth here are the objects, they are at your grasp. remove the objects and u will remove the shadows, place the objects and the shadows will appear. it does not have to be that abstract.

    but in regards to your response what would be a copy of this form “good” be? what would an illusion of this form “good” be?
    [/quote]

    You cannot take the allegory of the cave literally, an allegory is suppose to convey a message with symbolic figures. But, I’m not going to judge how you are interpreting what The cave means, but if you are going to understand what I’m trying to explain to you, then you are going to have to understand my interpretation of the symbolism.
    The chained man is his condition, mentally chained to a perspective.

    The light of the blazer is the light of knowledge.

    Again, the Objects are the forms, and the shadows are copies.

    The cave itself is the abstract realm, while the wall is the physical realm.

    Just because you move the objects doesn’t mean they won’t exist, they are permanent, that is why they represent a form and absolute truth, they are not destroyed, changed, or decayed. Just because the Atom wasn’t proven or discovered until the 19th century doesn’t mean it never existed. So, if there is no shadow cast by the object, then obviously the light hasn’t reached it yet.

    Please provide an absolute truth that is not abstract and exist in physical realm.

    A copy of the form Good would be anything that has a characteristics of Goodness.

    #350404
    Avatar of Kadin
    Kadin
    Moderator

    no. because there’s no absolute truth.

    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]
    by arguing there is no such thing as absolute truth, is that in itself considered absolute truth?

    បានចូលសាលា មានសញ្ញាប្រ័ត មិន ប្រាកដថាមានសមត្ថភាពក្នុងកិច្ចការ នោះទេ
    #350415
    Avatar of
    Anonymous

    Who tells that?

    #350426
    Avatar of
    Anonymous

    I agree with FD, it’s a paradox, something absolute is relative to something else. Then again, when something is relative, it is relative to something absolute….I kind of picture truth in a way our solar system works. The sun is the center, aka “absolute truth” then the other planets are the relative truths…they are in their own absolute truths but relative to the sun…. BUT the sun is relative to what’s outside the solar system, and so on.

    [i]Originally posted by Fuddyduddy[/i]

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]
    by arguing there is no such thing as absolute truth, is that in itself considered absolute truth?

    Yes, it’s called a paradox. You know like, Can god create a mountain that he cannot move? If he can, then well mr omnipotent all powerful can’t move it, but if he can’t build a mountain he cannot move then well he can’t build it. So, either way he cannot do it. I’m sure you heard that paradox somewhere. [/quote]

    #350436
    Avatar of
    Anonymous

    anicca – Impermanence is not relative. There is not one phenomena which is permanent or lasting. Everything decays. Everything that arises also decays. There is nothing that is lasting. All composed phenomena (thing, mental or physical) are anicca.

    dukkha – As there is not a single lasting thing, all composed things are unsatisfactory, subject to dissolving and therefor stressful without satisfaction

    anatta – All mental and physical phenomena are impersonal, with out any inherent self, do not exist out of them self.

    [Message last modified 10-07-2011 12:25am by hanzze]

    #350446
    Avatar of
    Anonymous

    what about energy? It cannot be destroyed or created, only transformed. Sounds permanent and absolute yet relative (in that it changes forms).

    [i]Originally posted by hanzze[/i]
    [b]anicca[/b] – Impermanence is not relative. There is not one phenomena which is permanent or lasting. Everything decays. Everything that arises also decays. There is nothing that is lasting. All composed phenomena (thing, mental or physical) are anicca.

    [b]dukkha[/b] – As there is not a single lasting thing, all composed things are unsatisfactory, subject to dissolving and therefor stressful without satisfaction

    [b]anatta[/b] – All mental and physical phenomena are impersonal, with out any inherent self, do not exist out of them self.

    [Message last modified 10-07-2011 12:25am by hanzze]

    #350455
    Avatar of
    Anonymous

    Good question. :-) So if it is lasting, can you keep it? Can you store it?

    Impermanent does not mean, there is nothing. For example, your body does not disappear after your physical death, but change into different forms. No lasting does not mean that it will disappear into nothing. Impermanence means never ending change. So nothing is permanent, energy is impermanent. It does not stay, it arises and decays. Kinetic energy comes to electric energy, electrical maybe to thermal energy and so on. But it is never lasting, maybe it is lasting for a long period, but always changing and does not last.

    #350465
    Avatar of
    Anonymous

    oh I see, theoretically energy is ‘stored’ in this reality because it can’t be created or destroyed…but at the same time it’s never (as far as I know) in its ‘original’ form. It’s either KE, PE, heat forms, etc. so it is more ‘impermanent’ than permanent if you look at say potential energy ‘decaying’ into kinetic energy or/and ‘wasted’ heat from friction, ie it’s always changing.

    [i]Originally posted by hanzze[/i]
    Good question. :-) So if it is lasting, can you keep it? Can you store it?

    Impermanent does not mean, there is nothing. For example, your body does not disappear after your physical death, but change into different forms. No lasting does not mean that it will disappear into nothing. Impermanence means never ending change. So nothing is permanent, energy is impermanent. It does not stay, it arises and decays. Kinetic energy comes to electric energy, electrical maybe to thermal energy and so on. But it is never lasting, maybe it is lasting for a long period, but always changing and does not last.

    [Message last modified 10-07-2011 05:55am by agent0o5]

    #350474
    Avatar of rasy
    rasy
    Participant

    [i]Originally posted by Kadin[/i]
    no. because there’s no absolute truth.

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]
    by arguing there is no such thing as absolute truth, is that in itself considered absolute truth?

    [/quote]

    saying there is no absolute truth would be your(kadin) absolute truth.

    #350485
    Avatar of rasy
    rasy
    Participant

    [i]Originally posted by Fuddyduddy[/i]

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by Fuddyduddy[/i]

    Well any form could have something to do with a moral dilemma for example the Form “GOOD”.

    you mention the shadows are copies of a form, the form being objects and illusions being shadows. absolute truth here are the objects causing the shadows. but not all absolute truth are in abstract realm. the truth here are the objects, they are at your grasp. remove the objects and u will remove the shadows, place the objects and the shadows will appear. it does not have to be that abstract.

    but in regards to your response what would be a copy of this form “good” be? what would an illusion of this form “good” be?
    [/quote]

    You cannot take the allegory of the cave literally, an allegory is suppose to convey a message with symbolic figures. But, I’m not going to judge how you are interpreting what The cave means, but if you are going to understand what I’m trying to explain to you, then you are going to have to understand my interpretation of the symbolism.
    The chained man is his condition, mentally chained to a perspective.

    The light of the blazer is the light of knowledge.

    Again, the Objects are the forms, and the shadows are copies.

    The cave itself is the abstract realm, while the wall is the physical realm.

    Just because you move the objects doesn’t mean they won’t exist, they are permanent, that is why they represent a form and absolute truth, they are not destroyed, changed, or decayed. Just because the Atom wasn’t proven or discovered until the 19th century doesn’t mean it never existed. So, if there is no shadow cast by the object, then obviously the light hasn’t reached it yet.

    Please provide an absolute truth that is not abstract and exist in physical realm.

    A copy of the form Good would be anything that has a characteristics of Goodness.
    [/quote]

    i will provide a absolute truth that exist in physical realm. The earth is round and the slight degree tilt of the earth helps balance our seasons and help create an earth that is habitable for humans to sustain life. This does not have to be abstract in order to grasp this truth.

    #350494
    Avatar of Fuddyduddy
    Fuddyduddy
    Participant

    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by Fuddyduddy[/i]

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by Fuddyduddy[/i]

    Well any form could have something to do with a moral dilemma for example the Form “GOOD”.

    you mention the shadows are copies of a form, the form being objects and illusions being shadows. absolute truth here are the objects causing the shadows. but not all absolute truth are in abstract realm. the truth here are the objects, they are at your grasp. remove the objects and u will remove the shadows, place the objects and the shadows will appear. it does not have to be that abstract.

    but in regards to your response what would be a copy of this form “good” be? what would an illusion of this form “good” be?
    [/quote]

    You cannot take the allegory of the cave literally, an allegory is suppose to convey a message with symbolic figures. But, I’m not going to judge how you are interpreting what The cave means, but if you are going to understand what I’m trying to explain to you, then you are going to have to understand my interpretation of the symbolism.
    The chained man is his condition, mentally chained to a perspective.

    The light of the blazer is the light of knowledge.

    Again, the Objects are the forms, and the shadows are copies.

    The cave itself is the abstract realm, while the wall is the physical realm.

    Just because you move the objects doesn’t mean they won’t exist, they are permanent, that is why they represent a form and absolute truth, they are not destroyed, changed, or decayed. Just because the Atom wasn’t proven or discovered until the 19th century doesn’t mean it never existed. So, if there is no shadow cast by the object, then obviously the light hasn’t reached it yet.

    Please provide an absolute truth that is not abstract and exist in physical realm.

    A copy of the form Good would be anything that has a characteristics of Goodness.
    [/quote]

    i will provide a absolute truth that exist in physical realm. The earth is round and the slight degree tilt of the earth helps balance our seasons and help create an earth that is habitable for humans to sustain life. This does not have to be abstract in order to grasp this truth.
    [/quote]

    So, you are saying it is absolute truth, it’s more of a theory. You’re going to have to go back to my post on the first page in regards of scientific discoveries and it being true enough to the knowledge that we already have.

    Is it absolute truth that when you sit on a chair you actually touch the chair? No, you are hovering over it, you are never actually touching it. The atoms aren’t even touching each other either, so in regards to what we already know, there is no touching going on. So, you may have or may have not known that, and if you didn’t know, now you do, so your truth has changed because of that knowledge.

    Also, from our perspective it is true that when I sit on the chair I touch it, but from the quantum perspective it isn’t.

    [Message last modified 10-07-2011 07:52am by Fuddyduddy]

    #350504
    Avatar of rasy
    rasy
    Participant

    so what happens when u sit on a knife? do u still hover over it then? no, the knife will puncture u and u will bleed.

    if my earth is round example is confusing then let me use another one in the physical realm:
    kidnapping, the absolute truth about kidnapping is that it is wrong…i have not seen a culture where it is acceptable to take another parent’s child without their parents knowing. kidnapping is wrong in any group or culture.

    list how kidnapping can be relative or subjective here

    #350512
    Avatar of Fuddyduddy
    Fuddyduddy
    Participant

    Well your first answer has to do with science. It’s called force. If there was no force, there is no puncture, you know like electromagnetic repulsion.

    You are seriously confusing yourself. Is that really considered absolute truth. /facepalm.

    Is kidnapping wrong if to save the child from abusive parents?

    Love thy neighbor, even if he is about to kill my family?

    The problem with these “Absolute truths” is that they have ethical and moral dilemmas based on conditions.

    Now, if you were to say that alone the “idea” “kidnapping” is bad, well that is abstract, that idea only exist abstractly as absolute. The act of it exist physically, and depending on conditions (relative or subjective) the outcome can be good or bad and has no absolute truth.

    You’re trying to find something absolute in a evolving and changing universe that you stand relative to. You can’t step into the same river twice. Technically you can, but you get the meaning.

    If a raccoon spoke to you about knowing the absolute truth how would you take that. Now a bunch of monkeys who can’t even solve their own social, economical, energy problems knows the absolute truth be it morally or physically. I find that hard to swallow and pretty comical.

    I don’t deny absolute truth, I only deny that there are people who can claim that they know what the absolute truth is. It is beyond our understanding. But hey, maybe there were people who did know, IE Jesus. I don’t “absolutely” know, however this is my stand on it, and it’s true enough for me.

    I don’t take Plato’s theories of forms as an absolute truth, but it is true enough that it logically make sense to what I already know, and through my own experience with the mushroom goddess. But, the truth can change.

    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]
    so what happens when u sit on a knife? do u still hover over it then? no, the knife will puncture u and u will bleed.

    if my earth is round example is confusing then let me use another one in the physical realm:
    kidnapping, the absolute truth about kidnapping is that it is wrong…i have not seen a culture where it is acceptable to take another parent’s child without their parents knowing. kidnapping is wrong in any group or culture.

    list how kidnapping can be relative or subjective here

    [Message last modified 10-07-2011 09:28am by Fuddyduddy]

    #350522
    Avatar of
    Anonymous

    Things are not that complicated. Good or bad is measured by the intention (if one likes to do that, which is difficult to do regarding others as you would normally not know the intention). If the intention is free of defilement (greed, anger, delusion and all its sub forms) the act will be a kusal (good).
    As for the reactions of others about the act and after the act, its there own problem, they may see it differently and react maybe in another way.

    As for kidnapping, there would be never a intention without defilement (what ever the reason for attachments are). Its results will be relatively good or bad, so one opinion against the other and a never ending story of discussion and reasoning.

    There is no act without intention, if the intention is without defilement the act will be a good one. That’s it.

    Here the Fourteen unwholesome mental factors that influence the mind:

    1. Moha (delusion)
    2. Ahirika (shameless)
    3. Anottappa (utter recklessness, not having normal dread)
    4. Uddhacca (distraction, restlessness)
    5. Lobha (greed)
    6. Ditthi (wrong view)
    7. Mana (conceit)
    8. Dosa (hatred, anger)
    9. Issa (envy)
    10. Macchariya (jealousy, selfishness)
    11. Kukkucca (worry)
    12. Thina (sloth)
    13. Middha (torpor)
    14. Vicikiccha (skeptical doubt)

    Intentions with one or more of those defilement will cause akusal (bad) actions. That’s it.

    #350532
    Avatar of rasy
    rasy
    Participant

    [i]Originally posted by Fuddyduddy[/i]
    Well your first answer has to do with science. It’s called force. If there was no force, there is no puncture, you know like electromagnetic repulsion.

    You are seriously confusing yourself. Is that really considered absolute truth. /facepalm.

    Is kidnapping wrong if to save the child from abusive parents?

    Love thy neighbor, even if he is about to kill my family?

    The problem with these “Absolute truths” is that they have ethical and moral dilemmas based on conditions.

    Now, if you were to say that alone the “idea” “kidnapping” is bad, well that is abstract, that idea only exist abstractly as absolute. The act of it exist physically, and depending on conditions (relative or subjective) the outcome can be good or bad and has no absolute truth.

    You’re trying to find something absolute in a evolving and changing universe that you stand relative to. You can’t step into the same river twice. Technically you can, but you get the meaning.

    If a raccoon spoke to you about knowing the absolute truth how would you take that. Now a bunch of monkeys who can’t even solve their own social, economical, energy problems knows the absolute truth be it morally or physically. I find that hard to swallow and pretty comical.

    I don’t deny absolute truth, I only deny that there are people who can claim that they know what the absolute truth is. It is beyond our understanding. But hey, maybe there were people who did know, IE Jesus. I don’t “absolutely” know, however this is my stand on it, and it’s true enough for me.

    I don’t take Plato’s theories of forms as an absolute truth, but it is true enough that it logically make sense to what I already know, and through my own experience with the mushroom goddess. But, the truth can change.

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]
    so what happens when u sit on a knife? do u still hover over it then? no, the knife will puncture u and u will bleed.

    if my earth is round example is confusing then let me use another one in the physical realm:
    kidnapping, the absolute truth about kidnapping is that it is wrong…i have not seen a culture where it is acceptable to take another parent’s child without their parents knowing. kidnapping is wrong in any group or culture.

    list how kidnapping can be relative or subjective here

    [Message last modified 10-07-2011 09:28am by Fuddyduddy][/quote]

    every time u take a knife and stab it in your body, the truth is it will puncture u…i dont know how much more true i can be about this…if u dont get this then facepalm myself…science and absolute truth can also work together as well.

    and kidnapping would be wrong. and yes people do to take children from abusive parents is called protective custody. protective custody is not the same as kidnapping.

    love they neighbor but also protect your family. if u love your neighbor u must naturally already love your family. failing to protect your family from harm is not loving them.

    i respect your statement in believing there is an absolute truth but its not able to be grasp. at least u admit there is absolute truth. Christians claim that Jesus is that truth and invite all people to investigate this claim and give it a fair trail.

Viewing 35 posts - 1 through 35 (of 91 total)