absolute truth?

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  • #350295
    Avatar of
    Anonymous

    That the truth is absolute does not mean that there is something absolute as well as there is something relative. The truth it self is the absolute, that is why it is called the truth.

    But you can also say that the only absolute is that all things are relative and therefor there would be something absolute. Can you get that? …the in between, the truth. *smile*

    #350306
    Avatar of Fuddyduddy
    Fuddyduddy
    Participant

    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by Fuddyduddy[/i]

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]
    by arguing there is no such thing as absolute truth, is that in itself considered absolute truth?

    Yes, it’s called a paradox. You know like, Can god create a mountain that he cannot move? If he can, then well mr omnipotent all powerful can’t move it, but if he can’t build a mountain he cannot move then well he can’t build it. So, either way he cannot do it. I’m sure you heard that paradox somewhere. [/quote]

    since absolute truth involves moral and ethical dilemmas, which one of the two would be wrong? 1) saying there is no such thing as absolute or? 2) there does exists an absolute truth? [/quote]

    If I were to debate that it is wrong for you to imply that absolute truth does exist, then I would certainly contradict my own statement, because my own statement implies that it is absolute truth that there is no absolute truth. Our language and mental perception limits us from any sort of conclusion, so really it’s pointless. As the saying goes, it’s true enough.

    If you are familiar with Plato’s cave, the shadows displayed on the wall in front the chained man is true enough within his own condition, understanding and perception, however if he were to turn around he would see that those shadows are only images being cast from the objects casting the shadows. Seeing this, his perception and condition has changed. What he once thought was truth, is now perceived differently and a bit clearer. When he goes outside, he realizes that there is a different reality, and his awareness and perception has changed again and conveys the truth differently. There is some sort of absolute but it is interpreted differently depending on the conditions, awareness and perception of the interpreter. That’s how I see it anyways.

    It is my belief that the truth whatever it may be, does exist however it is impossible to grasp. What is important is for us to interpret, or believe in whatever way we which, because if we already knew what the absolute truth there would not be any more interpretation and what fun would that be, no more imagination, no new ideas, no new experiences.

    “I see a pattern, but my imagination cannot picture the maker of that pattern. I see a clock, but I cannot envision the clockmaker. The human mind is unable to conceive of the four dimensions, so how can it conceive of a God, before whom a thousand years and a thousand dimensions are as one?” -Einstein, Princeton University

    #350315
    Avatar of bowang
    bowang
    Participant

    It is my belief that the truth whatever it may be, does exist however it is impossible to grasp. What is important is for us to interpret, or believe in whatever way we which, because if we already knew what the absolute truth there would not be any more interpretation and what fun would that be, no more imagination, no new ideas, no new experiences.

    logically it is impossible to grasp Absolute Truth because it is infinite and we are finite beings. However, God transcends logic and does make it possible to grasp HIM. He becomes a singularity. the Father, the Son, grasping and understanding each other through the Holy Spirit. same goes, how is man able to have free will when there is predestination in place? or how is it that light can be a wave or particle. creation is a paradox, it is impossible but it is real. it is beyond just quantum mechanics. there is Consciousness involved. we as finite beings and of our own accord will never understand the totality of the world outside of our cave. it is only when someone from the outside comes in to tell us personally do we start to have a sense of what it is like but not absolutely until you too leaves the cave. thats why Faith is required. Faith is like putting x, to infinity.

    lets say the cave is a fish bowl. i am outside of the bowl and i want to communicate with the primitive fishes. how would i go about doing so? i would take a bit of me and implant it into one of the fishes. sort of like genetic engineering but try to look at it from a spiritual perspective. from there, i would exist as both infinite and finite at the same time having descended to a lower realm by restricting myself in a body or singularity. i would retain certain memories designed to be intact and communicated to the other fishes in their own language about the outside world if that is my purpose or plan.

    so not only is it possible but we are the living proof of the miracle behind it.

    #350325
    Avatar of Fuddyduddy
    Fuddyduddy
    Participant

    [i]Originally posted by bowang[/i]
    [b] It is my belief that the truth whatever it may be, does exist however it is impossible to grasp. What is important is for us to interpret, or believe in whatever way we which, because if we already knew what the absolute truth there would not be any more interpretation and what fun would that be, no more imagination, no new ideas, no new experiences. [/b]

    logically it is impossible to grasp Absolute Truth because it is infinite and we are finite beings. However, God transcends logic and does make it possible to grasp HIM. He becomes a singularity. the Father, the Son, grasping and understanding each other through the Holy Spirit. same goes, how is man able to have free will when there is predestination in place? or how is it that light can be a wave or particle. creation is a paradox, it is impossible but it is real. it is beyond just quantum mechanics. there is Consciousness involved. we as finite beings and of our own accord will never understand the totality of the world outside of our cave. it is only when someone from the outside comes in to tell us personally do we start to have a sense of what it is like but not absolutely until you too leaves the cave. thats why Faith is required. Faith is like putting x, to infinity.

    lets say the cave is a fish bowl. i am outside of the bowl and i want to communicate with the primitive fishes. how would i go about doing so? i would take a bit of me and implant it into one of the fishes. sort of like genetic engineering but try to look at it from a spiritual perspective. from there, i would exist as both infinite and finite at the same time having descended to a lower realm by restricting myself in a body or singularity. i would retain certain memories designed to be intact and communicated to the other fishes in their own language about the outside world if that is my purpose or plan.

    so not only is it possible but we are the living proof of the miracle behind it.

    If you are trying to imply that Jesus is just a manifestation of god in a finite form then well I’m not going to refute it. However, I would like to say that higher intelligence like advance alien civilization could do the same thing. Heck, I can even eat mother natures magic penis and communicate with what I would define as divine.

    #350335
    Avatar of bowang
    bowang
    Participant

    i am not implying it. i am saying it. when jesus spoke about the kingdom of God, he’s referring to the outside world beyond the cave where he came from. no man can look upon the face of the Father and live means to directly grasp Absolute truth in its totality is impossible for the common man. but it is possible to get to know the Father (Infinite) through his Son (Finite), incarnation. like how a singularity is what’s needed to bridge different dimensions, multi dimensional travel. yes advance aliens, or fallen angels, they have manipulated our dna etc and dmt shroom all of which has spiritual as well as physical aspect to them. its all one of the same thing in different manifestations.

    [i]Originally posted by Fuddyduddy[/i]

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by bowang[/i]
    [b] It is my belief that the truth whatever it may be, does exist however it is impossible to grasp. What is important is for us to interpret, or believe in whatever way we which, because if we already knew what the absolute truth there would not be any more interpretation and what fun would that be, no more imagination, no new ideas, no new experiences. [/b]

    logically it is impossible to grasp Absolute Truth because it is infinite and we are finite beings. However, God transcends logic and does make it possible to grasp HIM. He becomes a singularity. the Father, the Son, grasping and understanding each other through the Holy Spirit. same goes, how is man able to have free will when there is predestination in place? or how is it that light can be a wave or particle. creation is a paradox, it is impossible but it is real. it is beyond just quantum mechanics. there is Consciousness involved. we as finite beings and of our own accord will never understand the totality of the world outside of our cave. it is only when someone from the outside comes in to tell us personally do we start to have a sense of what it is like but not absolutely until you too leaves the cave. thats why Faith is required. Faith is like putting x, to infinity.

    lets say the cave is a fish bowl. i am outside of the bowl and i want to communicate with the primitive fishes. how would i go about doing so? i would take a bit of me and implant it into one of the fishes. sort of like genetic engineering but try to look at it from a spiritual perspective. from there, i would exist as both infinite and finite at the same time having descended to a lower realm by restricting myself in a body or singularity. i would retain certain memories designed to be intact and communicated to the other fishes in their own language about the outside world if that is my purpose or plan.

    so not only is it possible but we are the living proof of the miracle behind it.

    If you are trying to imply that Jesus is just a manifestation of god in a finite form then well I’m not going to refute it. However, I would like to say that higher intelligence like advance alien civilization could do the same thing. Heck, I can even eat mother natures magic penis and communicate with what I would define as divine.
    [/quote]

    [Message last modified 09-26-2011 01:18am by bowang]

    #350346
    Avatar of rasy
    rasy
    Participant

    [i]Originally posted by Fuddyduddy[/i]

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by Fuddyduddy[/i]

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]
    by arguing there is no such thing as absolute truth, is that in itself considered absolute truth?

    Yes, it’s called a paradox. You know like, Can god create a mountain that he cannot move? If he can, then well mr omnipotent all powerful can’t move it, but if he can’t build a mountain he cannot move then well he can’t build it. So, either way he cannot do it. I’m sure you heard that paradox somewhere. [/quote]

    since absolute truth involves moral and ethical dilemmas, which one of the two would be wrong? 1) saying there is no such thing as absolute or? 2) there does exists an absolute truth? [/quote]

    If you are familiar with Plato’s cave, the shadows displayed on the wall in front the chained man is true enough within his own condition, understanding and perception, however if he were to turn around he would see that those shadows are only images being cast from the objects casting the shadows. Seeing this, his perception and condition has changed. What he once thought was truth, is now perceived differently and a bit clearer. When he goes outside, he realizes that there is a different reality, and his awareness and perception has changed again and conveys the truth differently. There is some sort of absolute but it is interpreted differently depending on the conditions, awareness and perception of the interpreter. That’s how I see it anyways.

    It is my belief that the truth whatever it may be, does exist however it is impossible to grasp. What is important is for us to interpret, or believe in whatever way we which, because if we already knew what the absolute truth there would not be any more interpretation and what fun would that be, no more imagination, no new ideas, no new experiences.

    [/quote]

    regarding Plato’s cave. yes if the prisoners were to just turn around they would come to a reality. they would come to the truth, and the truth tells them the shadows were caused by passing objects in front of the flame. They now know the shadows are caused by something and not caused by themselves. This story supports there is an absolute truth of how the shadows appear. there is no other interpretation to explain how the shadows logically truthfully appear. The former interpretation of the prisoners is wrong, the new interpreation is true. But is it wrong for them to find this new truth? I think not, this new found truth only benefits them.

    So now when the next set of prisoners come into the cave and are bound by the chains, the former prisoners can tell the new group “hey, do not be mislead, the shadows are before you are caused by the objects passing the flame.” And the truth would still stand. In fact, no matter how many new groups of prisoners come into the cave the truth about the shadows will still stand. For the next 1 year of new prisoners or the next 100 years of new prisoners in the cave, the truth of the shadows caused by flame will still stand. That is the significane of absolute truth.

    example of how this is practical. Because we know the truth about technology we can create smart phones, because we know the truth about the distance from the earth to the moon we can build a space ship and go there. If all of our scientific discoveries were not based on truth I think humans are more limited. It is because knowing the truth our imagination and creativity and experiences is more fun. Not knowing the truth i think limits us and our imagination.

    Yes, if the prisoners did not know the truth they can still be imaginative or creative. But the imagination is no longer imagination, it becomes reality. A false sense of reality. So they are not practicing creativity or imagination because they think the shadows are reality caused by themselves. So believeing in what ever we wish or interpreting in what ever we want without a standard can be harmful.

    But when it comes to what is wrong and what is right (moral & ethics), I we can not allow false truth or false reality to have it’s way with us, we cant afford that.

    [Message last modified 09-28-2011 08:55pm by rasy]

    #350355
    Avatar of Fuddyduddy
    Fuddyduddy
    Participant

    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]
    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by Fuddyduddy[/i]

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by Fuddyduddy[/i]

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]
    by arguing there is no such thing as absolute truth, is that in itself considered absolute truth?

    Yes, it’s called a paradox. You know like, Can god create a mountain that he cannot move? If he can, then well mr omnipotent all powerful can’t move it, but if he can’t build a mountain he cannot move then well he can’t build it. So, either way he cannot do it. I’m sure you heard that paradox somewhere. [/quote]

    since absolute truth involves moral and ethical dilemmas, which one of the two would be wrong? 1) saying there is no such thing as absolute or? 2) there does exists an absolute truth? [/quote]

    If you are familiar with Plato’s cave, the shadows displayed on the wall in front the chained man is true enough within his own condition, understanding and perception, however if he were to turn around he would see that those shadows are only images being cast from the objects casting the shadows. Seeing this, his perception and condition has changed. What he once thought was truth, is now perceived differently and a bit clearer. When he goes outside, he realizes that there is a different reality, and his awareness and perception has changed again and conveys the truth differently. There is some sort of absolute but it is interpreted differently depending on the conditions, awareness and perception of the interpreter. That’s how I see it anyways.

    It is my belief that the truth whatever it may be, does exist however it is impossible to grasp. What is important is for us to interpret, or believe in whatever way we which, because if we already knew what the absolute truth there would not be any more interpretation and what fun would that be, no more imagination, no new ideas, no new experiences.

    [/quote]

    regarding Plato’s cave. yes if the prisoners were to just turn around they would come to a reality. they would come to the truth, and the truth tells them the shadows were caused by passing objects in front of the flame. They now know the shadows are caused by something and not caused by themselves. This story supports there is an absolute truth of how the shadows appear. there is no other interpretation to explain how the shadows logically truthfully appear. The former interpretation of the prisoners is wrong, the new interpreation is true. But is it wrong for them to find this new truth? I think not, this new found truth only benefits them.

    So now when the next set of prisoners come into the cave and are bound by the chains, the former prisoners can tell the new group “hey, do not be mislead, the shadows are before you are caused by the objects passing the flame.” And the truth would still stand. In fact, no matter how many new groups of prisoners come into the cave the truth about the shadows will still stand. For the next 1 year of new prisoners or the next 100 years of new prisoners in the cave, the truth of the shadows caused by flame will still stand. That is the significane of absolute truth.

    example of how this is practical. Because we know the truth about technology we can create smart phones, because we know the truth about the distance from the earth to the moon we can build a space ship and go there. If all of our scientific discoveries were not based on truth I think humans are more limited. It is because knowing the truth our imagination and creativity and experiences is more fun. Not knowing the truth i think limits us and our imagination.

    Yes, if the prisoners did not know the truth they can still be imaginative or creative. But the imagination is no longer imagination, it becomes reality. A false sense of reality. So they are not practicing creativity or imagination because they think the shadows are reality caused by themselves. So believeing in what ever we wish or interpreting in what ever we want without a standard can be harmful.

    But when it comes to what is wrong and what is right (moral & ethics), I we can not allow false truth or false reality to have it’s way with us, we cant afford that.

    [Message last modified 09-28-2011 08:55pm by rasy][/quote]

    You are correct that it supports absolute truth, and Plato’s interpretation of absolute truth is what he called Forms, example, the nature of a chair is a form which is absolute everything else is a copy that is close enough to it. Another example is a perfect circle, we have never seen a perfect circle, but we can associate something resembling a circle to a circle. Forms exist in an abstract realm that only can be perceived by the mind.
    The shadows on the walls are copies of the forms, and not a true representation of them, the true forms are the objects. The images on the wall is an illusion, a copy of the form, and the chained men are interpreting those illusions to create a model that fits with their condition and limited awareness.

    What what we know scientifically is truth enough to fit with our model of the universe, it is not absolute. It’s just like the representation of the forms, what we are interpreting our copies and illusions, so what we know is the truest truth that we know. Again, our scientific discoveries are not based on an absolute truth, “the form”, it is based on a interpretation of the copies of the form. Because it is based on a copy we cannot see it’s full image, so we model what we interpret with what we have. You don’t need to know the absolute truth to fly a spaceship to the moon, you just need to know enough that it’s true enough to build a model that you can use to fly a spaceship to the moon. Not knowing the absolute, and only have interpretations of a copy of some sort of truths lead to imagination and creativity that is used to expand awareness, and I believe that does not limit us, it challenges us to create new ideas, new technology, concepts and different understanding.

    “Imagination is more important than knowledge.” – Albert Einstein.

    #350366
    Avatar of rasy
    rasy
    Participant

    @fuddybuddy, can u list a “form” that involves a moral or ethical dilemma?

    #350376
    Avatar of Fuddyduddy
    Fuddyduddy
    Participant

    Well any form could have something to do with a moral dilemma for example the Form “GOOD”.

    #350386
    Avatar of rasy
    rasy
    Participant

    [i]Originally posted by Fuddyduddy[/i]

    Well any form could have something to do with a moral dilemma for example the Form “GOOD”.

    you mention the shadows are copies of a form, the form being objects and illusions being shadows. absolute truth here are the objects causing the shadows. but not all absolute truth are in abstract realm. the truth here are the objects, they are at your grasp. remove the objects and u will remove the shadows, place the objects and the shadows will appear. it does not have to be that abstract.

    but in regards to your response what would be a copy of this form “good” be? what would an illusion of this form “good” be?

Viewing 10 posts - 11 through 20 (of 91 total)