absolute truth?

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  • #350880
    Avatar of
    Anonymous

    Ok..good you.mention a deaf person..

    a name is given to identify an object, things, etc.

    If the deaf person have never heard the sound round it.cant.be round.to.him, but he.will pick something that is similar and he call it “ahhhh”.

    If he pick up the round object and show another deaf person he call it “ohhhhh”.

    Then a blind person walk in an all he is hear ahhhh ohhhh ahhhh ohhhh.. the blind person cannot identify they are talking about the round object.

    After awhile of.repeat the process then they all agree it round but will name.it “ahhhh ohhhh”.
    ,
    Earth is not.round by it name. Earth is form round but.still we don’t know.round.is.round. just an illuison..lol..

    Draw a straight line.with a pnecil on paper..is it a straight.line..it.acutal a.series.of dots.

    A printer use the term DPI. Pc, monitor etc..DPI . They all agree it display “dots per inch”.

    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by PhnomKlarSar[/i]
    how would you describe if we in the world have 5000 Rasy…would they are be the same..see my point..
    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by Kadin[/i]
    , [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by Kadin[/i]

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by Kadin[/i]

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]

    [/quote]

    [/quote]
    [/quote]

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    [Message last modified 10-13-2011 01:38am by Kadin][/quote]

    [/quote]
    [/quote]

    i’m confused on this reponse

    even a deaf person who is unable to verbally communicate sound, they will use their means to communicate to us the earth is round and not flat. Even if a blind person can not see the earth is round, it doesn’t change the fact it’s round.[/quote]

    [Message last modified 10-13-2011 07:37pm by PhnomKlarSar]

    #350887
    Avatar of
    Anonymous

    Earth is formed …round is a shape we giving.that form.

    #350897
    Avatar of
    Anonymous

    [i]Originally posted by agent0o5[/i]
    No, sometimes lying is the right thing to do. Some people can’t handle the truth, they have to lie to themselves and have blind faith that whatever they believe is true will magically become true despite the facts.

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by hanzze[/i]
    A lie is always wrong. Just let it simple, there would not much to think of and we can stay in the present and not waving around in “if” and ideas and thoughts and speculations…

    [/quote]

    That would have its basement of your own speculation. Do you really think you know how others are and that you are the one who can change them.

    Keep it simple, just don’t lie. No need to make brain gymnastic and the “what, if, when” thing. The truth has nothing do with ideas or thoughts.

    But a lie is for sure the opposite of the truth, so a lie is never right. *smile* Actually to understand the truth is nothing but stop lying, especial to one self. ;-)

    [Message last modified 10-14-2011 02:35am by hanzze]

    #350907
    Avatar of
    Anonymous

    Well, *if* things were that simple, we wouldn’t have these discussions.

    Whether a lie is wrong or not is not so black or white. I’m sure you’ve told a lie to someone before for their own good, like lying to a child about the truth because they’re not ready to handle it.

    [i]Originally posted by hanzze[/i]
    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by agent0o5[/i]
    No, sometimes lying is the right thing to do. Some people can’t handle the truth, they have to lie to themselves and have blind faith that whatever they believe is true will magically become true despite the facts.

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by hanzze[/i]
    A lie is always wrong. Just let it simple, there would not much to think of and we can stay in the present and not waving around in “if” and ideas and thoughts and speculations…

    [/quote]

    That would have its basement of your own speculation. Do you really think you know how others are and that you are the one who can change them.

    Keep it simple, just don’t lie. No need to make brain gymnastic and the “what, if, when” thing. The truth has nothing do with ideas or thoughts.

    But a lie is for sure the opposite of the truth, so a lie is never right. *smile* Actually to understand the truth is nothing but stop lying, especial to one self. ;-)

    [Message last modified 10-14-2011 02:35am by hanzze][/quote]

    #350916
    Avatar of
    Anonymous

    Things are that simple, but are you sure that you like to have them simple?

    Don’t worry, everybody had done wrong, but that is not the question. A lie is wrong and all the rest are ideas and actuelly mostly compromises.

    But a compromise has nothing to do with the truth. We would find 1000 excuses why we did wrong, but how ever it world not change into right at the end.

    So walking the way of virtue means to work constantly on one self. Step by step we reach the point to understand the truth. *smile*

    [i]Originally posted by agent0o5[/i]
    Well, *if* things were that simple, we wouldn’t have these discussions.

    Whether a lie is wrong or not is not so black or white. I’m sure you’ve told a lie to someone before for their own good, like lying to a child about the truth because they’re not ready to handle it.

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by hanzze[/i]
    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by agent0o5[/i]
    No, sometimes lying is the right thing to do. Some people can’t handle the truth, they have to lie to themselves and have blind faith that whatever they believe is true will magically become true despite the facts.

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by hanzze[/i]
    A lie is always wrong. Just let it simple, there would not much to think of and we can stay in the present and not waving around in “if” and ideas and thoughts and speculations…

    [/quote]

    That would have its basement of your own speculation. Do you really think you know how others are and that you are the one who can change them.

    Keep it simple, just don’t lie. No need to make brain gymnastic and the “what, if, when” thing. The truth has nothing do with ideas or thoughts.

    But a lie is for sure the opposite of the truth, so a lie is never right. *smile* Actually to understand the truth is nothing but stop lying, especial to one self. ;-)

    [Message last modified 10-14-2011 02:35am by hanzze][/quote]
    [/quote]

    #350926
    Avatar of
    Anonymous

    Hanzze

    A lie is wrong..that why we are not the Buddha or buddhas.

    But human can succed by holding the 5 principle in theverda Buddhism..

    [i]Originally posted by hanzze[/i]
    Things are that simple, but are you sure that you like to have them simple?

    Don’t worry, everybody had done wrong, but that is not the question. A lie is wrong and all the rest are ideas and actuelly mostly compromises.

    But a compromise has nothing to do with the truth. We would find 1000 excuses why we did wrong, but how ever it world not change into right at the end.

    So walking the way of virtue means to work constantly on one self. Step by step we reach the point to understand the truth. *smile*

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by agent0o5[/i]
    Well, *if* things were that simple, we wouldn’t have these discussions.

    Whether a lie is wrong or not is not so black or white. I’m sure you’ve told a lie to someone before for their own good, like lying to a child about the truth because they’re not ready to handle it.

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by hanzze[/i]
    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by agent0o5[/i]
    No, sometimes lying is the right thing to do. Some people can’t handle the truth, they have to lie to themselves and have blind faith that whatever they believe is true will magically become true despite the facts.

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by hanzze[/i]
    A lie is always wrong. Just let it simple, there would not much to think of and we can stay in the present and not waving around in “if” and ideas and thoughts and speculations…

    [/quote]

    That would have its basement of your own speculation. Do you really think you know how others are and that you are the one who can change them.

    Keep it simple, just don’t lie. No need to make brain gymnastic and the “what, if, when” thing. The truth has nothing do with ideas or thoughts.

    But a lie is for sure the opposite of the truth, so a lie is never right. *smile* Actually to understand the truth is nothing but stop lying, especial to one self. ;-)

    [Message last modified 10-14-2011 02:35am by hanzze][/quote]
    [/quote]
    [/quote]

    #350936
    Avatar of
    Anonymous

    Actually not to keep honestly and abstain from lying is the way to become an Arahant, even in this present life. Step by step. If we would be perfect already, we would not be her. *smile*

    Not lying to one self is very important.

    Regarding the speech factor of lying if one likes to make a big step forward:

    Kinds of speech to be avoided by contemplatives

    “Whereas some priests and contemplatives, living off food given in faith, are addicted to talking about lowly topics such as these — talking about kings, robbers, ministers of state; armies, alarms, and battles; food and drink; clothing, furniture, garlands, and scents; relatives; vehicles; villages, towns, cities, the countryside; women and heroes; the gossip of the street and the well; tales of the dead; tales of diversity [philosophical discussions of the past and future], the creation of the world and of the sea, and talk of whether things exist or not — he abstains from talking about lowly topics such as these. This, too, is part of his virtue.

    “Whereas some priests and contemplatives, living off food given in faith, are addicted to debates such as these — ‘You understand this doctrine and discipline? I’m the one who understands this doctrine and discipline. How could you understand this doctrine and discipline? You’re practicing wrongly. I’m practicing rightly. I’m being consistent. You’re not. What should be said first you said last. What should be said last you said first. What you took so long to think out has been refuted. Your doctrine has been overthrown. You’re defeated. Go and try to salvage your doctrine; extricate yourself if you can!’ — he abstains from debates such as these. This, too, is part of his virtue.”

    from Samaññaphala Sutta: The Fruits of the Contemplative

    #350945
    Avatar of rasy
    rasy
    Participant

    [i]Originally posted by PhnomKlarSar[/i]
    Ok..good you.mention a deaf person..

    a name is given to identify an object, things, etc.

    If the deaf person have never heard the sound round it.cant.be round.to.him, but he.will pick something that is similar and he call it “ahhhh”.

    If he pick up the round object and show another deaf person he call it “ohhhhh”.

    Then a blind person walk in an all he is hear ahhhh ohhhh ahhhh ohhhh.. the blind person cannot identify they are talking about the round object.

    After awhile of.repeat the process then they all agree it round but will name.it “ahhhh ohhhh”.

    Earth is not.round by it name. Earth is form round but.still we don’t know.round.is.round. just an illuison..lol..

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by PhnomKlarSar[/i]

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by Kadin[/i]
    , [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by Kadin[/i]

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by Kadin[/i]

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]

    [/quote]

    [/quote]
    [/quote]

    [/quote]
    [/quote]

    [Message last modified 10-13-2011 01:38am by Kadin][/quote]

    [/quote]
    [/quote]

    .[/quote]

    [Message last modified 10-13-2011 07:37pm by PhnomKlarSar][/quote]

    but u just admitted earth takes a form, that form is round.
    the blind man will hear different things from the deaf men, but once the deaf men puts that round object in the blind mans hands he will feel what the deaf are verbalizing about…both the blind men and deaf man will come to a universal agreement on this shape.

    [Message last modified 10-15-2011 02:57am by rasy]

    #350955
    Avatar of
    Anonymous

    @ rasy

    Form is still a shape. Round is the name of the shape…

    is form of a box round? triangle round? nope….

    Earth is round by a name given..but basically it a form..just like anything else..

    We human name things..We make up thing…:)

    #350965
    Avatar of
    Anonymous

    Humans are not only shapes (forms, things) *smile* Or did you mean that we are just another kind of phenomena when you say that humans are things. That would be right. *smile*

    [Message last modified 10-15-2011 03:27am by hanzze]

    #350975
    Avatar of rasy
    rasy
    Participant

    [i]Originally posted by PhnomKlarSar[/i]
    @ rasy

    Form is still a shape. Round is the name of the shape…

    is form of a box round? triangle round? nope….

    Earth is round by a name given..but basically it a form..just like anything else..

    We human name things..We make up thing…:)

    wow i cant believe we just spent all this time debating on whether the shape of the earth is round or not…i say it is round, and if u and kadin choose to not accept the form of the earth is round then i really dont know what to tell yah…

    #350984
    Avatar of
    Anonymous

    lol….then you have found the answer..there is no absoluite truth…

    Your saying earth is round
    I say it a form…

    which one is right..we are both right..:)

    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by PhnomKlarSar[/i]
    @ rasy

    Form is still a shape. Round is the name of the shape…

    is form of a box round? triangle round? nope….

    Earth is round by a name given..but basically it a form..just like anything else..

    We human name things..We make up thing…:)

    wow i cant believe we just spent all this time debating on whether the shape of the earth is round or not…i say it is round, and if u and kadin choose to not accept the form of the earth is round then i really dont know what to tell yah…
    [/quote]

    #350994
    Avatar of
    Anonymous

    I don’t understand that this should be a conclusion of there is no absolute true. It’s like two eyeless are discussing if there is light. Well I am sure they would agree that there is no light. :-) But still speculation that what if our ideas are not right.

    *smile*

    #351003
    Avatar of rasy
    rasy
    Participant

    [i]Originally posted by PhnomKlarSar[/i]
    lol….then you have found the answer..there is no absoluite truth…

    Your saying earth is round
    I say it a form…

    which one is right..we are both right..:)
    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by PhnomKlarSar[/i]
    @ rasy

    Form is still a shape. Round is the name of the shape…

    is form of a box round? triangle round? nope….

    Earth is round by a name given..but basically it a form..just like anything else..

    We human name things..We make up thing…:)

    wow i cant believe we just spent all this time debating on whether the shape of the earth is round or not…i say it is round, and if u and kadin choose to not accept the form of the earth is round then i really dont know what to tell yah…
    [/quote]
    [/quote]

    every physical matter takes a shape of something…the shape of earth is round. It would not make sense to say the earth is the shape of a form, that’s basically saying the earth is the shape of something… u have just use the word ”form” and the word “something” to mean the same thing. Earth is formed from physical matter, not an abstract thought. Earth is physical mass of land and water. Earth takes the shape of a round planet. All scientist, faith based or non faith based scientist have an absolute universal agreement on the shape of the earth being round, not flat, not triangle not rectangle but round. This is a universal agreement and absolute.

    your saying earth is a form…but a form of what? but if ur thinking abstractly i might be starting to understand u, but in terms of physical objective science the earth is still round…and i would not be considered crazy or wrong if i were to tell others that the earth is round. People would not think i am a lunatic or out of my mind by saying the earth is round.

    btw, saying there is no absolute truth would be your absolute truth. You know so much of the truth about life makes u in a position to say there is no absolute truth in life. Saying there is no absolute truth is your absolute truth.

    so lol, u just answered the question. the fact that u disagree with me in the first place is saying u know more than me. The fact that we have different religious faith is an example of one side trying to tell the other what is true to them. We debate on religion, morals, politics, the shape of the earth. We both agree we love our culture. But we do not agree on many things. While not agreeing on many things we try to show one another our side, our truth side. We disagree and label each other wrong brother because deep down inside we do have a truth. Your truth is in the Buddha and khmer prophecies. this is true to u and u want to make it real to me. but I find the bible true and i want to make this real for others.

    When you write on this forum and say the God of the bible is not real. You are saying to me you know you the real truth, you are claiming the that the God of the bible is not real. So when anyone comes along to you and say ”I believe in the God of bible” you will feel an obligation to share to that person your truth, you can say “sorry to tell u the truth, but there is no God.” This is basically what you are doing. Brother, you can’t get more absolute than this. .. saying there is no God is saying you know more than that person whom is a believer. You are claiming to know more, you are claiming to know the truth, this is your absolute.

    #351013
    Avatar of rasy
    rasy
    Participant

    [i]Originally posted by agent0o5[/i]
    What if you’re using false testimony to catch a criminal who is trying to lie to you & won’t tell you the truth?

    Like how cops try to make a criminal confess to a crime? You do know police officers have the rights to lie to you about having witnesses who saw you committing a crime even though they don’t. Sometimes they’ll use it on friends/relatives of the suspect so they will help catch the criminal as well because they might hold back.

    Is it wrong when you’re using a lie or false information about this suspect to catch the real criminal?

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]

    [Message last modified 10-12-2011 07:02am by agent0o5][/quote]

    there’s coercion by law enforcement often. Sometimes coercion causes suspect to confess. Some of these confessions are true and some false. Even some suspects who are truly guilty may be judged innocent pleading they were unconstitutionally coerced. The law judges each of these situation case by case.

    #351022
    Avatar of
    Anonymous

    Round is a scientific term to describe an object..I don’t have the complete.truth but I am giving you facts..

    Even in the bible does not describe the earth round nor the earth is flat..

    Unless can find truth to.perfection then it.will be abosolute..

    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by PhnomKlarSar[/i]
    lol….then you have found the answer..there is no absoluite truth…

    Your saying earth is round
    I say it a form…

    which one is right..we are both right..:)
    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by PhnomKlarSar[/i]
    @ rasy

    Form is still a shape. Round is the name of the shape…

    is form of a box round? triangle round? nope….

    Earth is round by a name given..but basically it a form..just like anything else..

    We human name things..We make up thing…:)

    wow i cant believe we just spent all this time debating on whether the shape of the earth is round or not…i say it is round, and if u and kadin choose to not accept the form of the earth is round then i really dont know what to tell yah…
    [/quote]
    [/quote]

    every physical matter takes a shape of something…the shape of earth is round. It would not make sense to say the earth is the shape of a form, that’s basically saying the earth is the shape of something… u have just use the word ”form” and the word “something” to mean the same thing. Earth is formed from physical matter, not an abstract thought. Earth is physical mass of land and water. Earth takes the shape of a round planet. All scientist, faith based or non faith based scientist have an absolute universal agreement on the shape of the earth being round, not flat, not triangle not rectangle but round. This is a universal agreement and absolute.

    your saying earth is a form…but a form of what? but if ur thinking abstractly i might be starting to understand u, but in terms of physical objective science the earth is still round…and i would not be considered crazy or wrong if i were to tell others that the earth is round. People would not think i am a lunatic or out of my mind by saying the earth is round.

    btw, saying there is no absolute truth would be your absolute truth. You know so much of the truth about life makes u in a position to say there is no absolute truth in life. Saying there is no absolute truth is your absolute truth.

    so lol, u just answered the question. the fact that u disagree with me in the first place is saying u know more than me. The fact that we have different religious faith is an example of one side trying to tell the other what is true to them. We debate on religion, morals, politics, the shape of the earth. We both agree we love our culture. But we do not agree on many things. While not agreeing on many things we try to show one another our side, our truth side. We disagree and label each other wrong brother because deep down inside we do have a truth. Your truth is in the Buddha and khmer prophecies. this is true to u and u want to make it real to me. but I find the bible true and i want to make this real for others.

    When you write on this forum and say the God of the bible is not real. You are saying to me you know you the real truth, you are claiming the that the God of the bible is not real. So when anyone comes along to you and say ”I believe in the God of bible” you will feel an obligation to share to that person your truth, you can say “sorry to tell u the truth, but there is no God.” This is basically what you are doing. Brother, you can’t get more absolute than this. .. saying there is no God is saying you know more than that person whom is a believer. You are claiming to know more, you are claiming to know the truth, this is your absolute.

    [/quote]

    [Message last modified 10-17-2011 06:54pm by PhnomKlarSar]

    #351031
    Avatar of rasy
    rasy
    Participant

    [i]Originally posted by Fuddyduddy[/i]
    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by Fuddyduddy[/i]
    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by Fuddyduddy[/i]
    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]
    .

    [Message last modified 10-08-2011 07:33pm by Fuddyduddy][/quote]

    [/quote]

    As long as that truth is for the good and betterment of mankind and our world then it being absolute or not doesn’t matter.

    [Message last modified 10-10-2011 05:48am by Fuddyduddy][/quote]

    illustration:

    a community in a village with everyone with blue eyes gets along and agree on laws for the betterment of mankind, this seems to work. But then another group with black eyes comes along and takes over that 1st group of villagers and changes the prior laws to another law claiming it is real goodness. the number of black eyed people outnumber blue eyed people 3 to 1 ratio. this new law imposed results in less access to food, water etc towards the 1st group blue eyed group…would this still be acceptable? or would there still be a standard that this new 2nd black eyed group has to uphold by? [/quote]

    That is why I said that believing we have a grasp on absolute truth concerning morality would be dangerous, because no matter what standard we claim to know we only see at certain perspective. I actually like Legend response to you thread, and that is exactly what I’m trying to imply to you. I’m not going change your mind regarding your beliefs, and that is why I don’t care if you believe in an absolute truth, or not as long as you have the better judgment on how that truth effects yourself and mankind.

    [Message last modified 10-11-2011 01:07am by Fuddyduddy][/quote]

    but u still haven’t answered by question. Would what the black eye group doing is acceptable?

    #351041
    Avatar of rasy
    rasy
    Participant

    [i]Originally posted by Legends[/i]
    There’s no universal /absolute reference for truth. But, It doesn’t mean that there isn’t an absolute truth only means that there is no absolute truth that we can refer to at a particular point of energy or consciousness as the correct representation of that truth. So, for an example, as far as we know, it’s probably an absolute truth that two masses will attract each other with there gravitational pull. However, there is no reference frame that we can point to as the exclusive reference for that truth. That truth is independent of the reference frame of observation of that truth. Also, if two independent reference frames do not agree to what is the truth on a particular item, either one or both wrong? Then which is wrong or how do you know both aren’t wrong. Though the truth is everywhere, it’s not always seen for what it is.

    Math is a good example, if you think about math it’s pretty absolute. 1+1=2. However when we apply it to physical reality, 1 tree + 1 tree doesn’t equal 2 of the same tree, only equaling an abstract unit.

    how would u apply this concept to a situation where a man sleeps with another mans wife. since u say there is no reference for truth (what is right or wrong) how do u react to this scenario?

    #351049
    Avatar of Fuddyduddy
    Fuddyduddy
    Participant

    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by Fuddyduddy[/i]
    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by Fuddyduddy[/i]
    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by Fuddyduddy[/i]
    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]
    .

    [Message last modified 10-08-2011 07:33pm by Fuddyduddy][/quote]

    [/quote]

    As long as that truth is for the good and betterment of mankind and our world then it being absolute or not doesn’t matter.

    [Message last modified 10-10-2011 05:48am by Fuddyduddy][/quote]

    illustration:

    a community in a village with everyone with blue eyes gets along and agree on laws for the betterment of mankind, this seems to work. But then another group with black eyes comes along and takes over that 1st group of villagers and changes the prior laws to another law claiming it is real goodness. the number of black eyed people outnumber blue eyed people 3 to 1 ratio. this new law imposed results in less access to food, water etc towards the 1st group blue eyed group…would this still be acceptable? or would there still be a standard that this new 2nd black eyed group has to uphold by? [/quote]

    That is why I said that believing we have a grasp on absolute truth concerning morality would be dangerous, because no matter what standard we claim to know we only see at certain perspective. I actually like Legend response to you thread, and that is exactly what I’m trying to imply to you. I’m not going change your mind regarding your beliefs, and that is why I don’t care if you believe in an absolute truth, or not as long as you have the better judgment on how that truth effects yourself and mankind.

    [Message last modified 10-11-2011 01:07am by Fuddyduddy][/quote]

    but u still haven’t answered by question. Would what the black eye group doing is acceptable? [/quote]

    I did answer your question, if the black eyed group claimed their law is real goodness, an absolute moral law, then that certainly would not be good for the blue eyed and it could cause a lot of grief for the black eyed group. What if the blue eyed started to rebel with terrorism, the whole social system would be in a chaos. Balance and cooperation is what is needed not an absolute good or evil moral law. If the inhabitants of that group all got a long and progressed with their society and not harming anyone, only that they worshiped Satan and sacrificed goats in the name of Lucifer, would it make them a bad society? From the perspective of the Mayans, no. from the Christians yes, from the goat maybe so. the only law that stands true is karma.

    [Message last modified 11-20-2011 03:43am by Fuddyduddy]

    [Message last modified 11-20-2011 03:47am by Fuddyduddy]

    #351058
    Avatar of rasy
    rasy
    Participant

    [i]Originally posted by Fuddyduddy[/i]
    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by Fuddyduddy[/i]
    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by Fuddyduddy[/i]
    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]

    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by Fuddyduddy[/i]
    [quote]
    [i]Originally posted by rasy[/i]
    .

    [Message last modified 10-08-2011 07:33pm by Fuddyduddy][/quote]

    [/quote]

    As long as that truth is for the good and betterment of mankind and our world then it being absolute or not doesn’t matter.

    [Message last modified 10-10-2011 05:48am by Fuddyduddy][/quote]

    illustration:

    a community in a village with everyone with blue eyes gets along and agree on laws for the betterment of mankind, this seems to work. But then another group with black eyes comes along and takes over that 1st group of villagers and changes the prior laws to another law claiming it is real goodness. the number of black eyed people outnumber blue eyed people 3 to 1 ratio. this new law imposed results in less access to food, water etc towards the 1st group blue eyed group…would this still be acceptable? or would there still be a standard that this new 2nd black eyed group has to uphold by? [/quote]

    That is why I said that believing we have a grasp on absolute truth concerning morality would be dangerous, because no matter what standard we claim to know we only see at certain perspective. I actually like Legend response to you thread, and that is exactly what I’m trying to imply to you. I’m not going change your mind regarding your beliefs, and that is why I don’t care if you believe in an absolute truth, or not as long as you have the better judgment on how that truth effects yourself and mankind.

    [Message last modified 10-11-2011 01:07am by Fuddyduddy][/quote]

    but u still haven’t answered by question. Would what the black eye group doing is acceptable? [/quote]

    I did answer your question, if the black eyed group claimed their law is real goodness, an absolute moral law, then that certainly would not be good for the blue eyed and it could cause a lot of grief for the black eyed group. What if the blue eyed started to rebel with terrorism, the whole social system would be in a chaos. Balance and cooperation is what is needed not an absolute good or evil moral law. If the inhabitants of that group all got a long and progressed with their society and not harming anyone, only that they worshiped Satan and sacrificed goats in the name of Lucifer, would it make them a bad society? From the perspective of the Mayans, no. from the Christians yes, from the goat maybe so. the only law that stands true is karma.

    [Message last modified 11-20-2011 03:43am by Fuddyduddy]

    [Message last modified 11-20-2011 03:47am by Fuddyduddy][/quote]

    would it be safe to say the black eyed group’s perception of what is real goodness and absolute morals is false? That their perception of real goodness is distorted?

    Obviously for the black eyed group to continue treating the blue eye group in this manner u and I find unacceptable. we agree on that and we are on equal playing field.

    u make a good point about bringing balance to this society to avoid rebellion towards chaos. U mention balance and cooperation is needed. again I agree.

    But let me ask u a question. How do u we measure what equal balance is? How were we able to detect there was imbalance in the first place?how do we recognize equal balance when we see it? how do we detect it? All these questions require an answer that leads to a standard. There is a standard that we measure things by. I know i’m 5ft 10 in because I stand next to a 6 ft ruler.

    we know there is imbalance in this blue eyes/black eye society because there is a moral standard because they are not living up to this moral standard. It is only when the blue eye and black eye group have equal treatment that is when we can say they have reached that standard. Unless the standard is not reached, we will always see something imbalanced.

    when u say it is good to have balance and cooperation u are attempting to tip the scale of inequality from one end to another end to balance it out. to bring it close to that standard.

    example: we look into a mirror to see that our face is dirty, but we do not rub our face in the mirror to clean our face. No we use something else to wipe our face to clean it. The same way when we look into the blue eyed/black eyed village we see there is something wrong with this picture. we then act towards making this picture right (balancing equal rights for blue eyed and black eyed).

    moral law and absolute morals is like a mirror for humanity. we look at it so see what is wrong and what is right.

    another example DR. MLK Jr. the black civil rights activist. He was just one of many who realized the white man back then perception of what is good what is fair was distorted. He set out on a path to bring equality to all people not just blacks. He knew very well that there is a higher standard that all people are to abide by and even the white man is to abide by this standard. False sense that we should judge people by the color of their skin.

    Dr. MLK did not just liberated blacks towards equality, Dr. King liberated whites from the prison of their minds. They had a false sense of reality. Now the future generations to come and our children and white children and their future children do not have to live with the false perception that being white is being supreme.

    [Message last modified 11-28-2011 04:43pm by rasy]

    #351068
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    Anonymous

    Cula-viyuha Sutta: The Lesser Array

    “Dwelling on their own views,
    quarreling, different skilled people say:
    ‘Whoever knows this, understands Dhamma.
    Whoever rejects this, is imperfect.’
    Thus quarreling, they dispute:
    ‘My opponent’s a fool & unskilled.’
    Which of these statements is true
    when all of them say they are skilled?”
    “If, in not accepting an opponent’s doctrine,
    one’s a fool, a beast of inferior discernment,
    then all are fools of inferior discernment
    — all of these who dwell on their views.

    But if, in siding with a view,
    one’s cleansed,
    with discernment made pure,
    intelligent,
    skilled,
    then none of them are of inferior discernment,
    for all of them have their own views.

    I don’t say,
    ‘That’s how it is,’
    the way fools say to one another.
    They each make out their views to be true
    and so regard their opponents as fools.”

    “What some say is true —
    ‘That’s how it is’
    — others say is ‘falsehood, a lie.’
    Thus quarreling,
    they dispute.
    Why can’t contemplatives say one thing & the same?”

    “The truth is one,[1]
    there is no second
    about which a person who knows it
    would argue with one who knows.

    Contemplatives promote their various personal truths,
    that’s why they don’t say one thing & the same.”
    “But why do they say various truths,
    those who say they are skilled?
    Have they learned many various truths
    or do they follow conjecture?”

    “Apart from their perception
    there are no many various constant truths in the world.[2]
    Preconceiving conjecture with regard to views,
    they speak of a pair: true & false.

    Dependent on what’s seen,
    heard, & sensed,
    dependent on precepts & practices,
    one shows disdain [for others].

    Taking a stance on his decisions,
    praising himself, he says,
    ‘My opponent’s a fool & unskilled.’
    That by which he regards his opponents
    as fools is that by which he says he is skilled.

    Calling himself skilled he despises another
    who speaks the same way.
    Agreeing on a view gone out of bounds,
    drunk with conceit,
    thinking himself perfect,
    he has consecrated,
    with his own mind,
    himself as well as his view.

    If, by an opponent’s word, one’s inferior,
    the opponent’s of inferior discernment as well.
    But if, by one’s own word one’s an attainer-of-wisdom,
    enlightened,
    no one among contemplative’s a fool.

    ‘Those who teach a doctrine
    other than this are lacking in purity, imperfect.’
    That’s what the many sectarians say,
    for they’re smitten with passion for their own views.

    ‘Only here is there purity,’
    that’s what they say.
    ‘In no other doctrine is purity,’ they say.
    That’s how the many sectarians are entrenched,
    speaking firmly there concerning their own path.
    Speaking firmly concerning your own path,
    what opponent here would you take as a fool?
    You’d simply bring quarrels on yourself
    if you said your opponent’s a fool with an impure doctrine.
    Taking a stance on your decisions,
    & yourself as your measure,
    you dispute further down into the world.
    But one who’s abandoned all decisions
    creates in the world quarrels no more.”

    Notes

    1. “The truth is one”: This statement should be kept in mind throughout the following verses, as it forms the background to the discussion of how people who preconceive their conjectures speak of the pair, true and false. The Buddha is not denying that there is such a thing as true and false. Rather, he is saying that all entrenched views, regardless of how true or false their content might be, when considered as events in a causal chain behave in line with the truth of conditioned phenomena as explained in the preceding discourse. If held to, they lead to conceit, conflict, and states of becoming. When they are viewed in this way — as events rather than as true or false depictions of other events (or as events rather than signs) — the tendency to hold to or become entrenched in them is diminished.
    2. On the role of perception in leading to conflicting views, see the preceding discourse.

    *smile*

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