Interesting article about Pol Pot (untold story)

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  • #1145401
    Avatar of bEeFVWCorrado
    bEeFVWCorrado
    Participant

    I know alot of people blame pol pot for everything that went wrong. He is the scapegoat for the genocide that happened during his regime. I mean, it is his regime, so everything that happened during that time must be his fault…he must have issued all the order to kill right? Maybe not.

    So who “else” committed genocide on Khmer besides the scapegoat, Pol Pot? How about Hun Sen, who was a Khmer Rouge soldier himself. Some people say the Hun Sen regime is less violent and much more merciful than Pol Pot. Is it really?

    Why isn’t Hun Sen put on trial at the Khmer Rouge tribunal? Why did Hun Sen try to stall the trial? BECAUSE HE TOOK PART IN THE ATROCITIES!

    We blame Pol Pot without even hearing his side of the story. He was not even convicted in a trial yet…and we already blame him for everything…because always we remember is “the Pol Pot era where millions died.” Could one man have acted alone? A man who loved his country so dearly? Who else called for the murder of Khmer on “behalf” of Pol Pot?

    Some blame Pol Pot for attacking Vietnam…say he was paranoid about Vietnam’s attempt to take over Cambodia…was he paranoid or was he not? Did the KR actually saved Cambodia? Was China also trying to take indoChina? Did the Chinese blackmailed the Khmer Rouge with the “fake” alliance?

    This is also an interesting article. I’m not saying it support or disprove my statement above…but it does raise some issues…on who acted with who. Its from different point of view…

    Check out this article: http://www.phnompenhpost.com/TXT/comments/polpot2.htm
    “The Vietnamese had long since learned, at their own expense, how the reins of the Cold War were not in their hands, and not even in the hands of their Soviet sponsors. Their ruling class kept cool and finally won Cambodia.”

    “Indeed Nixon and Brezhnev had decided during secret negotiations from 1968-72 (a minor southeastern “Yalta”) that China deserved a slice of the Indochinese cake, specifically Cambodia, in the ancient outdated logic of the vassal state.”

    “For sure the Cambodian tragedy needs a new historical approach within the frame of the tactics and strategies of the Cold War, whose legacy seems now, more than 20 years later, ripe for a revisited and neutral analysis.

    A tribunal on the so-called “genocide” cannot properly judge the Khmer Rouge and Pol Pot without first dismissing the Cold War lies and “face values” that brought them to power.”

    [Message last modified 08-24-2005 09:12pm by bEeFVWCorrado]

    #1145403
    Avatar of HutMYKdut
    HutMYKdut
    Participant

    Old news, also and very bias. Yes, there were lots of facts in there that can be confirmed by other courses, but he goes off on a tangent and starts assuming things (or someone is TELLING him to assume these things) based on what he finds. Remember this is 1998, and its a paper in Phnom Penh. A lot of propoganda going on.

    ” A tribunal on the so-called “genocide” cannot properly judge the Khmer Rouge and Pol Pot without first dismissing the Cold War lies and “face values” that brought them to power.

    This is where I have a HUGE problem with him, and why I question this writer. He says “SO CALLED “genocide”". Those words were chosen very carefully, and the word “genocide” is even in parenthesis.

    Are you f’king kidding me? No doubt THERE WAS A GENOCIDE, its not a question. Without a doubt, Pol Pot and the KR army were the ones that systematically murdered their own people. They are fully responsible for murdering their own people whether they were ordered to by another government or not. Are others responsible for aiding and minipulating the Pol Pot and the KR, yes. But the blood wasnt on their hands, they “helped” him come to power, but Pol Pot was the one that chose all of those peoples fates.

    #1145405
    Avatar of HM_SAM
    HM_SAM
    Participant

    was such a mess…all the dirty politics from everywhere. The average person out there may not know it and many of us can only assume this and that, but solid evidence isn’t there, however, I’m sure we all know some of the truth.

    I know that Pol Pot alone isn’t repsonsible for all of this…if you really think about it…what in the world would cause Khmer to kill khmer on this magnitude? Khmer somlab jeaht khmer doll tnak nirng…hmmmm. The way I see it, it’s not just the KR…a few other parties are involve…I’ll just leave it at that.

    [Message last modified 08-25-2005 01:56am by HM_SAM]

    #1145407
    Avatar of jaya_kampuchea
    jaya_kampuchea
    Participant

    [i]Originally posted by HM_SAM[/i]
    I know that Pol Pot alone isn’t repsonsible for all of this…if you really think about it…what in the world would cause Khmer to kill khmer on this magnitude? Khmer somlab jeaht khmer doll tnak nirng…hmmmm. The way I see it, it’s not just the KR…a few other parties are involve…I’ll just leave it at that.

    well, the mass killings really started when pol pot ordered his own comrades to be purged. just look at all those photos at tuol sleng. they all have the same uniform on. the eastern cadres.. probably somewhere between 100,000-150,000 were liquidated… the khmers in the forced labor camps most died due to starvation and diseases..

    #1145409
    Avatar of bEeFVWCorrado
    bEeFVWCorrado
    Participant

    [i]Originally posted by jaya_kampuchea[/i]
    well, the mass killings really started when pol pot ordered his own comrades to be purged. just look at all those photos at tuol sleng. they all have the same uniform on. the eastern cadres.. probably somewhere between 100,000-150,000 were liquidated… the khmers in the forced labor camps most died due to starvation and diseases..

    The details, pol pot ordered the killing of the traitors…those suspected of sobotaging the plan to purge Cambodia of the Viets. He wanted to get rid of those who was suspected of being traitors. According to my history book, Pol Pot ordered the killing of all Khmer Rouge membered that was trained in Vietnam.

    Fact, there were so many faction in the regime…lead to many chaos. But the original goal of the KR was to purge Cambodia of the enemy…which was vietnam and its spies. They were very nationalistic. You can see by the fact that their first priority was to send all the Vietnamese back to Vietnam….even anyone with Vietnamese mixed blood. Their purification philosophy were extreme, yes. But they weren’t in the business to kill Khmer.

    #1145411
    Avatar of bEeFVWCorrado
    bEeFVWCorrado
    Participant

    [i]Originally posted by HutMYKdut[/i]

    ” A tribunal on the so-called [b]“genocide”[/b] cannot properly judge the Khmer Rouge and Pol Pot without first dismissing the Cold War lies and “face values” that brought them to power.

    Are you f’king kidding me? No doubt THERE WAS A GENOCIDE, its not a question. Without a doubt, Pol Pot and the KR army were the ones that systematically murdered their own people.

    I think the author meant that, using genocide to judge the KR is somewhat misleading…one must also look into who participated in the killing. He explain who participated in the event leading up to the genocide in the meat of his article. What he’s saying that, if you’re gonna use genocide, you might as well include the soviet, chinese, vietnamese, etc. as well. Because the Khmer Rouge was a scapegoat and a front for all the chaos that lead to the “genocide.”

    #1145413
    Avatar of HutMYKdut
    HutMYKdut
    Participant

    Its not misleading at all. Ultimately, who were the ones doing the killings? Exactly my point.

    #1145415
    Avatar of bEeFVWCorrado
    bEeFVWCorrado
    Participant

    [i]Originally posted by HutMYKdut[/i]
    Ultimately, who were the ones doing the killings? Exactly my point.

    Was it the Khmer Rouge? Or was it? Who ordered the killings? Was it the Khmer Rouge? Or was it? That is why we have to look at the details…think about it, why isn’t Hun Sen being tried in the tribunal? Why isn’t his master, the Viet, being tried? Didn’t they play a role…a BIG role? We can also blame the KR soldiers for taking orders right? Then why aren’t Hun Sen on trial? How come they’re putting the leaders on trial? Man, the trial haen’t even onfirm what is right or wrong yet. But hey, our fortune teller says its the Khmer Rouge who did it! Who needs a trial when we have fortune tellers?

    #1145417
    Avatar of HM_SAM
    HM_SAM
    Participant

    about the death due to execution, famine, and epidemics…

    I’m refering to something else, I know I didn’t make it clear, but I’ll leave it at that. For those who are look far beyong Pol Pot…I’m sure they have something else in minds too.

    [i]Originally posted by jaya_kampuchea[/i]
    well, the mass killings really started when pol pot ordered his own comrades to be purged. just look at all those photos at tuol sleng. they all have the same uniform on. the eastern cadres.. probably somewhere between 100,000-150,000 were liquidated… the khmers in the forced labor camps most died due to starvation and diseases..

    #1145419
    Avatar of HutMYKdut
    HutMYKdut
    Participant

    Hun Sen WAS a KR soldier. He happens to be the prime minister of the country, and even though he was apart of the party that commited the aweful crimes, he was not a commanding officer, so in international courts, he has no commited any war crimes. If they were going to convict based on relations, then the King would be on trail also.

    Pol Pot ordered the killings. The soldiers wouldnt listen to anyone else. China helped put Pol Pot to power, and simply turned their back, letting Pol Pot do what he had to do. Even IF (I do not believe he was ordered to do anything, he murdered his people on his own account), Pol Pot was ordered to murder all of those people, he still had a choice. He did NOT have to take those orders.

    At some point, how did the KR even think its a war? Isnt there a moral issue involved? Theyre killing innocent people and they happen to be their own people. No one is responsible for pulling the trigger but them. Pol Pot (Khmer) led the KR. That is a fact. Being a soldier is one thing, but before you are a soldier, you are a man, with your own mind. In this case, Pol Pot chose to slaughter his own people, whether it was an order from another leader or on his own account, it doesnt matter. Ultimately, he lead other Khmers, and those Khmers systematically killed other khmers. That is called genocide. The blood was on the KR hands. That is a fact.

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